I never had any skin in the "public breastfeeding" debate, but when it came up one time at a bar with some friends, two female friends, BOTH conservative, were ADAMANT that they have the right to breast feed in public for everyone to see.
I said I wasn't "offended" as much as I found it gross and was repulsed by it.
This threw them into a tizzy.
I spent the remainder of the debate telling them it didn't matter how they felt, it wasn't going to change the fact I was viscerally repulsed by it and instinctively found it gross. But this distinction fell on deaf ears. Failing to listen and letting their emotions run rampant I was yelled at, lectured, called names. I tried multiple times to get emotion out of it and to make the distinction that I, as well as the majority of men, didn't have a choice in finding it gross, it was our natural reaction. I tried to convey to them that they could pass as many laws as they wanted, it still wouldn't change people's natural reaction to it. Of course I failed.
But there was something of an observation I had that was very interesting. One of the girls has been desperately trying to get her boyfriend to commit to her long term and propose. He was sitting right there next to her while she was going on about how they have a right to breastfeed in public and how dare men oppress them and their children and blah blah blah. And while she was going on you could see him shaking his head, looking at me as if to say,
"This girl just doesn't get it. She thinks I'm going to marry HER with this attitude and insanity? I'm bad or evil for being grossed out by public breastfeeding. Look at how she doesn't even factor in whether or not I approve. Look how she is incapable of thinking of other people. Good lord, and she wants to have kids! If we ever did have kids, I'd be thrown under the bus in half a second. The hell if I'm EVER going to pop the question to her!"
Which more or less was the nub of the point.
Lay down as many laws as you want, it isn't going to change people's natural reaction. Yell and scream and berate people all you want, it's not going to change their automated responses. What's ultimately bothering you isn't that there's not enough laws protecting rights or what have you, it's that you are angry that people find something you do disgusting and you (foolishly) think enacting laws will somehow FORCE people to not find it disgusting.
If that's the case, then make it illegal for men to find fat women unattractive. Or women to find short men unattractive. You can make all the laws in the world you want, and you can breastfeed in front of my face just for a power trip or out of spite (which I think is behind a lot of this anyway), you're still inconsiderate, you're still selfish, and I still find it disgusting.
So pass all the laws you want. Make employers flee the state. Selfishly force inconvenience and discomfort upon the public. And berate people for finding things disgusting. You'll simply drive people away from you because you're advertising quite loudly to the world:
"I'm the only one that matters and I value myself more than anybody else."
Because no matter what the official "law" says, society still holds you to a set of unspoken laws (people called these things "manners" or "decency" back in the olden days), and those aren't going away. Choose to obey or disregard them, you'll still be judged.
Post post - A duly noted distinction arising from the comments. I am talking about what would be considered "flagrant" breastfeeding. Not the "discrete" breastfeeding wherein the mother covers her baby with a towel, which I (and I would believe most other people) are fine with. I'm talking where I'm eating and I see a woman's breast at the dinner table.
Breast feeding in public does not bother me as long as it is done in a discrete manner, with respect to those around you. Hell, I scratch my balls in public, but I do so discretely, and someone would have to be staring at my crotch at exactly the right moment to notice what I was doing.
ReplyDeleteBut, that is not the point of my comment.
The point is the behavior of your woman friends. You should not have been surprised at all. Their reaction is typical 100% human nature.
I submit, for your reading enjoyment, an article from Anchorage AK, where the voters overwhelmingly rejected an initiative to give the same anti-discrimination protections to gays and transgenders.
http://www.adn.com/2012/04/03/2406275/voters-reject-gay-rights-initiative.html
The interesting thing is the number of comments that essentially say nothing more than:
"If you voted against this proposal, you are a bigot."
Well, if the majority of the city of Anchorage disagrees with the creation of yet another protected class, doesn't that mean those that agree with that mentality are in fact the norm, and not the haters?
At least one city is wising up and realizing that you cannot legislate human nature out of existence.
Most straight guys also have a revulsion to seeing gay men kiss. This wasn't taught either but will support the 2.5-5% of gay people as natural but not the 65% (Wild ass guess) of men who find it gross. It's the hypocrisy that bugs me "They're feelings are normal because they were born that way but your feelings are completely unnatural even though there are more of you and you were also born that way."
ReplyDeleteGross? To each their own I suppose. I'd just find it odd, and move on, if I saw a woman doing it "out in the open"
ReplyDeleteI've never a known a women who didn't cover up when feeding in public ( throw a blanket over the shoulder, child goes to work under cover) mostly because they thought it was somewhat immodest ( and cold) to have their breast hanging out during the process. Also Infants are dis-tractable, what they can't see distracts them less and gets the process over with.
I really can't see the problem either way.
I don't particularly like these breast feeding zealots either. My wife breast fed both my sons and if you do it discretely no one even knows you are doing it. She could feed the children while riding a city bus and no one was ever the wiser. These zealots have to be in-your-face about it because of some weird "look at me i'm special thing. - minuteman
ReplyDeleteWhenever some virago rants, "What's the matter with you, breastfeeding is perfectly natural!" my reaction is, "OK, so you don't mind if I drop trou and take a dump in public, then? That's natural, too!"
ReplyDeleteWatch out with that last one. Supposedly they let children in the southern cities of China drop loaves in the streets. I haven't witnessed it personally, but hey, it can always get stranger.
ReplyDeleteThere was a study out about a year or two ago that found that men who had sex -- either with a partner or on their own -- four or five times a week had the lowest incidence of prostate cancer.
ReplyDeleteSeems to me, just from a public health perspective (to say nothing of equal rights for both sexes), what we need is a law stating that any public facility or employer that reserves a special breastfeeding area for women should be required to provide men with free porn and a wanking station. And if they can let the ladies pop 'em out in full view of the public, well, that would just be considered free porn in 3-D!
When I see a woman breatfeeding publicly I make a point of ogling as hard as I can. I don't find the sight offensive but in my view it is a private function and should be kept at least discrete.
ReplyDeleteSince 80% of drug sales take place on street corners, we can put all the drug dealers out of business by outlawing street corners. That ought to put a big dent in prostitution also.
ReplyDelete"If that's the case, then make it illegal for men to find fat women unattractive. Or women to find short men unattractive..."
ReplyDeleteWomen are in favor of draconian laws ONLY as long as those laws affect the freedoms, rights, habits and behaviors of OTHER groups (e.g., men -- particularly those men they deem 'beneath' them), and either protect or preserve THEIR own freedoms, rights, habits and behaviors.
As we men have already seen with VAWA, 'no-fault' divorce, 'sexual harassment' laws, 'rape' laws, and DV laws.
And these same women probably wonder, "Where Are All The 'Good Men'?"
"When I see a woman breatfeeding publicly I make a point of ogling as hard as I can. I don't find the sight offensive but in my view it is a private function and should be kept at least discrete."
ReplyDeleteI like that.
Better yet, approach them and thank them for the view as you never get to see boobies any other way.
Question - why isn't showing your female breast in public considered sexual harassment? Maybe it's because the only people who can claim to be sexually harassed are females.
"provide men with free porn and a wanking station"
ReplyDeleteif it saves just one life etc etc
The law won't change your feelings about it, but it will make you STFU and that was the whole point of it anyway. just like all those other laws to give freedoms to various groups turned out to be thought crime laws.
ReplyDeleteI honestly have no dog in this fight. I'm not offended by public breastfeeding. I honestly don't care. I'm offended by folks who declare that their personal preferences need to be enforced upon the world by law, though.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to do something, you should find a place where that activity is permitted freely by consent of the owner. Likewise, if you want to do something, folks willing to permit it on their property shouldn't be prohibited by law from doing so. And folks who _don't_ want to permit it on their property shouldn't be _required_ by law to permit it, either.
Why the hell does it have to be any more complicated than that?
Tasteful breastfeeding in public (ie towel over the shoulder) is one of the oddest things I can think of to get upset about. Try mustering the will power to not care, it might work.
ReplyDeleteI once ran into a breastfeeding club at Second Cup; four mothers had decided to order their venti lattes together, and sit by the front door with their breasts plopped out at 2 in the afternoon.
ReplyDeleteMy sister also likes to show her left nipple to the rest of the family whenever she has a kid small enough to suckle it.
There's nothing more uncomfortable than glancing over and seeing a non-sexy nipple. I think it's a similar motivation to the slutwalks - women just want an excuse to flaunt it and get attention.