Kristophr, while I think stem is more important than Icelandic Saga and much of what is taught in university can be self taught for free or very little cost, making universities STEM-only does not guarantee all these STEM grads will have jobs anymore than Liberal Arts grads have jobs right now.
American IT corporations both outsource and insource (H1B visas) its STEM employees.
From the above Heartiste link "poolside in america";
"Toward the end of the video, the interviewer asks RattLife Surfer if he feels guilty for taking advantage of Obama’s removal of restrictions on qualifying for food stamps, and helping himself to $200 of “free” money every month. He says no, and I believe him. It would be strange to feel guilt for sucking a pittance of Danegeld from fat cats helping themselves to ungodly profits from arcane financial transactions abetted by a cognitive firewall between the masses and the gated 0.1%ers on the hunt for ever-cheaper labor imported from shitholes. RattLife has made a very rational decision regarding his well-being: He has looked at the world he inherited, at the immense chasm between the haves and (relative) have-nots, and has figured that slaving away in a cube farm or a grimy sweatshop on a stagnating wage to serve a smaller and smaller cadre of super wealthy and femcunt HR schoolmarms is no life at all. What is the point of busting your hump when the brass ring has moved from your fingertips to Alpha Centauri?"
- I'm interested to hear what CC has to say about this since just days ago when I told him about my friends who are doing this, he called the "parasites living off of my tax money".
And my friends are not living morally debauched lives. They are living extremely frugally, practicing right conduct, maintaining high ethics, engaging in yoga and meditation, AND creating (very) small businesses also.
They live in section 8 housing and use EBT cards because, as monk and nun types, they are below the poverty line.
Unlike the surfer above, they have rejected the excess materialism and sexual immoralities of mainstream American culture.
The problem with STEM only education is that libertarians and conservatives already dominate STEM education. The problem is STEM educated people do not dominate society. As much as it might be nice if engineers, nuclear physicists, and plumbers ran things they don't, and probably never will. The people that do run things get degrees as an undergrad in history, English, journalism, and law (political science). These are the people whose ideas shape society. We can take away the money force all community colleges to teach STEM only courses and we might convince a few welders that liberty is a great idea. That will not change society. To change society we need to infiltrate the art communities, the mainstream media, and the legal profession.
"The statement "libertarians and conservatives already dominate STEM education" isn't true. It's not remotely true. Any poll you can find, any walk through any large high-tech intensive area, any quick sampling of say Nobel laureates, will show how badly deluded the author of that statement is.
It may be true that libertarians and conservatives are overrepresented in STEM rlative to other subjects. But that's also true in many areas of the humanities.
You can believe I am deluded but the STEM subjects are not only taught in the high end universities. Most often they are taught in trade schools, community colleges, and local small universities places where these subject are dominated by conservatives and libertarians.
That's irrelevant. I said nothing abut where STEM subjects are taught; I said something about the overall bias of people in those fields. Like most highly educated Americans, they skew heavily liberal. Just is.
I mean, look at, say, donations to political candidate sin Silicon Valley and the Research Triangle. Look at opinion polls or party registration. Look at the coverage in science and math journals. To argue that STEM is dominated by conservatives and libertarians, or even that they are a majority, is to have your head wedged so deep into your own alimentary canal that you can see out your mouth.
You are just wrong. The STEM subjects are dominated by libertarians/conservatives especially if you look at just those working in the fields and by an even larger majority than in the teaching of those fields.
You can not base numbers on how much is given to campaigns because certain demographics give much less than other demographics and some demographics give nothing. You can not base numbers on sociological studies for a similar reason.
Another problem with looking at any numbers is that "conservatism" and "libertarianism" are much more fractured politically than "liberalism". I don't like to use the word liberal when talking about the Left. I sometimes fall into bad habits but the word we should use is progressive or Leftist. When I write about those dominating the STEM subjects I am talking about liberty minded people. These people can be seen as "Liberal" and still not be progressive or Leftist. For instance I am a classical liberal I am not a conservative. As such you would call me out because I disagree with conservatives on a host of subjects but I disagree with progressives even more.
Let me say one more thing about demographics. For every one engineer, software developer, architect, and scientist working in Silicon Valley or the Research Triangle there are ten working in small towns and medium sized cities all over fly over country.
Jonathan Baird is writing in from Mars. Pew routinely polls scientists and engineers. They overwhelmingly identify as Democrat. About a third identify as independent, and some dinky little number identifies as Repbulican. I'd love to see an America with more respect for STEM disciplines - but it would be a much more progressive America.
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/poolside-in-america/
ReplyDeleteEnjoying The Decline, indeed!
The way to kill the education-socialism complex is to remove the federal education subsidy.
ReplyDeleteSure you can major in Icelandic Saga ... on your own dime.
Then take over community colleges and state funded colleges, and make them STEM-only havens.
Kristophr, while I think stem is more important than Icelandic Saga and much of what is taught in university can be self taught for free or very little cost, making universities STEM-only does not guarantee all these STEM grads will have jobs anymore than Liberal Arts grads have jobs right now.
ReplyDeleteAmerican IT corporations both outsource and insource (H1B visas) its STEM employees.
From the above Heartiste link "poolside in america";
ReplyDelete"Toward the end of the video, the interviewer asks RattLife Surfer if he feels guilty for taking advantage of Obama’s removal of restrictions on qualifying for food stamps, and helping himself to $200 of “free” money every month. He says no, and I believe him. It would be strange to feel guilt for sucking a pittance of Danegeld from fat cats helping themselves to ungodly profits from arcane financial transactions abetted by a cognitive firewall between the masses and the gated 0.1%ers on the hunt for ever-cheaper labor imported from shitholes. RattLife has made a very rational decision regarding his well-being: He has looked at the world he inherited, at the immense chasm between the haves and (relative) have-nots, and has figured that slaving away in a cube farm or a grimy sweatshop on a stagnating wage to serve a smaller and smaller cadre of super wealthy and femcunt HR schoolmarms is no life at all. What is the point of busting your hump when the brass ring has moved from your fingertips to Alpha Centauri?"
- I'm interested to hear what CC has to say about this since just days ago when I told him about my friends who are doing this, he called the "parasites living off of my tax money".
And my friends are not living morally debauched lives. They are living extremely frugally, practicing right conduct, maintaining high ethics, engaging in yoga and meditation, AND creating (very) small businesses also.
They live in section 8 housing and use EBT cards because, as monk and nun types, they are below the poverty line.
Unlike the surfer above, they have rejected the excess materialism and sexual immoralities of mainstream American culture.
The problem with STEM only education is that libertarians and conservatives already dominate STEM education. The problem is STEM educated people do not dominate society. As much as it might be nice if engineers, nuclear physicists, and plumbers ran things they don't, and probably never will. The people that do run things get degrees as an undergrad in history, English, journalism, and law (political science). These are the people whose ideas shape society. We can take away the money force all community colleges to teach STEM only courses and we might convince a few welders that liberty is a great idea. That will not change society. To change society we need to infiltrate the art communities, the mainstream media, and the legal profession.
ReplyDelete"The statement "libertarians and conservatives already dominate STEM education" isn't true. It's not remotely true. Any poll you can find, any walk through any large high-tech intensive area, any quick sampling of say Nobel laureates, will show how badly deluded the author of that statement is.
ReplyDeleteIt may be true that libertarians and conservatives are overrepresented in STEM rlative to other subjects. But that's also true in many areas of the humanities.
You can believe I am deluded but the STEM subjects are not only taught in the high end universities. Most often they are taught in trade schools, community colleges, and local small universities places where these subject are dominated by conservatives and libertarians.
ReplyDeleteThat's irrelevant. I said nothing abut where STEM subjects are taught; I said something about the overall bias of people in those fields. Like most highly educated Americans, they skew heavily liberal. Just is.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to know the definition of "liberal" in this country.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if I qualify?
I mean, look at, say, donations to political candidate sin Silicon Valley and the Research Triangle. Look at opinion polls or party registration. Look at the coverage in science and math journals. To argue that STEM is dominated by conservatives and libertarians, or even that they are a majority, is to have your head wedged so deep into your own alimentary canal that you can see out your mouth.
ReplyDeleteYou are just wrong. The STEM subjects are dominated by libertarians/conservatives especially if you look at just those working in the fields and by an even larger majority than in the teaching of those fields.
ReplyDeleteYou can not base numbers on how much is given to campaigns because certain demographics give much less than other demographics and some demographics give nothing. You can not base numbers on sociological studies for a similar reason.
Another problem with looking at any numbers is that "conservatism" and "libertarianism" are much more fractured politically than "liberalism". I don't like to use the word liberal when talking about the Left. I sometimes fall into bad habits but the word we should use is progressive or Leftist. When I write about those dominating the STEM subjects I am talking about liberty minded people. These people can be seen as "Liberal" and still not be progressive or Leftist. For instance I am a classical liberal I am not a conservative. As such you would call me out because I disagree with conservatives on a host of subjects but I disagree with progressives even more.
Let me say one more thing about demographics. For every one engineer, software developer, architect, and scientist working in Silicon Valley or the Research Triangle there are ten working in small towns and medium sized cities all over fly over country.
ReplyDeleteAgain: data, please. And if the leaders of those industries skew liberal I don't really care what the rank and file are.
ReplyDeleteJonathan Baird is writing in from Mars. Pew routinely polls scientists and engineers. They overwhelmingly identify as Democrat. About a third identify as independent, and some dinky little number identifies as Repbulican. I'd love to see an America with more respect for STEM disciplines - but it would be a much more progressive America.
ReplyDelete