Thursday, June 11, 2015

Why MGTOW Is Unsalvageable

It is now a nearly daily event where I will get a comment on my YouTube channel from some naive late teen or early 20 something girl who parrots the simpleton and naive argument she was programmed to parrot:

"Feminism is just the equal treatment of men and women!"

Like all of you, I find it funny, but disheartening because in throwing her lot in with "feminists" or "feminism" she is associating herself with a movement that entails:

Menstrual knitting
Menstrual painter
Spitting on priests and Catholic men
False rape accusations

and a cornucopia of other outright insanity, hate, and genuine bigotry against men.

However, such a young girl can hardly be blamed.  Not only is she young and inexperienced, she's naive.  Additionally, feminism is sold to her as "simply" the equal treatment of men and women (while its darker hate-filled side is very often hidden).  So when presented with this proposition, that men and women should be treated equally, then who (male or female) would reject feminism?

The problem, however, is while young women may be predisposed to look at the self-proclaimed moral virtues of feminism, because of the internet young men see the uglier and truer side of feminism.  They see the slut walks.  They see the fact acceptance.  They see their dad's getting divorced.  They see their buddy's worrying about getting sperm-jacked or being falsely accused of rape.  And so when a young woman proudly (though cluelessly) claims she's a "feminist" you might as well proudly be telling a Jew your a Nazi.

And that same thing, I'm afraid, is happening to the term "MGTOW."

MGTOW in all of its original intent was as noble and just as feminism.  It was simply men choosing to leave the rat race of careerism, marriage, dating, etc. behind, and go live their one life on this planet as they saw fit.  They abandoned tradition, choosing to refuse the offer society currently left them on the table as a cost benefit analysis more often than not proved the old social contract just wasn't worth it anymore.

However, like all good ideas, especially ones that rebuke convention, it attracted not practitioners or genuinely independent men, but genuine social rejects and outcasts.  And soon within a couple of years a concept of individualism, freedom, and independent thought was turned into a religious cult that served more as a haven for cultists to commiserate with one another and hate on women.

This presented genuine MGTOW's a conundrum I'm sure many legitimate and original feminists faced;

Do you keep claiming to be a MGTOW/feminist when radicals, bigots, and losers take over movement and thus redefine the term?

Originally, I thought the percentage of cultists in the MGTOW community was a minority.  Just a bunch of loud nerds or unemployed losers who had all day to play a keyboard jockey, pontificating about the "religion" of MGTOW as if they were doctoral seminarians and academics.  But when I did a video to differentiate us real MGTOW's from the 17 year old who couldn't find a date to prom, I realized soon they were both too loud and too high a percentage of the community.  MGTOW, no matter what its validity and benefits as an idea, was effectively hijacked by the cultists and their behavior would make it a four letter word.

Alas, I have come to the same conclusion the originator of the term MGTOW (Rob Fedders) came to.  The term MGTOW is not salvageable.  MGTOW today is about as manly as feminism is feminine.  It no longer represents strong, independent men who under their own intellectual volition decide to go out and strike out on their own way.  It is a bunch of self-proclaim internet professors who can only study and speculate about what real life MGTOW's are doing in the real world.

Are their real world MGTOW's out there, real men, genuinely going their own way?  Yes, of course.  But they're too busy actually being MGTOW to write about it, let alone care if they're labelled "MGTOW."

Ergo, it's up to every man out there which they'd rather be.

A practitioner with no label:





































Or a theoretician "Level 53F" MGTOW:

















The choice is up to you.

42 comments:

James Wolfe said...

The same thing happened to men in Japan. Once they identified as a group they became ostracized by society as losers and freaks. Men who go there own way here are called all kinds of derogatory things and I would bet over half of the people who claim to be MGTOW who are the ones posting all these crazy things aren't even men. Or if they are they're really SJWs trying to give real men a bad name. Rush Limbaugh paid someone to research and find out where the most vocal critics were coming from. They found out about 90% of the registered account names came from a handful of people. It only appeared like there was this vast number of people hating him. It was really just 2 or 3 really dedicate people trolling him. I suspect we have a lot of that going on here.

1432fpchero said...

true, and LMAO funny

Cynical Basterd said...

Sadly I'm coming to this realization as well.

MGTOW was a useful term when it was just those of us who didn't give a damn what others thought to let others who understood the term know what we were doing and befuddle those who didn't understand the acronym. Now it's been taken over by keyboard warriors and those who have proudly gone womanfree and wear it like a badge of honor.

For those of us who just want to do our own thing, just do what you want. I would suggest abandoning the term MGTOW and just use something like "own way" if you have to tell someone what you're doing. Don't use it like a badge and don't try and say someone else isn't doing it right because there is no one way. For me it's computer programming, coasters, and caving. For you it might be other things. You don't even have to go womanfree, I'm always on the lookout for the Loch Ness NAWALT (I've seen the blurry photographs, they do exist).

Thanks for the wise words Cappy. Enjoy going your own way out west.

leeholsen said...

Yes ! and again I say YES !


I know several middle age men that play video games, keep their facebook up to date and dress more like a high school dropout rather than someone with a college degree; which they all have.

There's not an independent thinker, one capable of finding and pursuing their own interests and none maintain their stance on something until shown in black and white that they are wrong; they crumble with any pressure.

I refuse to join them and example 1 is not having text on my smartphone. I maintain that any person can call and tell me what they want to faster than they can text it and I refuse to waste my time texting on that belief and if I miss out on something because I'm the guy that doesn't have texting; so be it.

Anonymous said...

"They see the slut walks. They see the fact acceptance."

Feminism's not really big on "fact acceptance", Aaron.

Dave said...

Meh. Part of the ethos of MGTOW is not caring what anyone else thinks of MGTOW.

Mark Neil said...

Yeah. I gave up the label a while ago. Working on the application as I write


https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/117263735010520365057/6159273155068093010

grey enlightenment said...

lol you keep beating-up on MGTOW..mgtow you share a lot of ideological similarities, it's just that MGTOW people have different, more introverted lifestyles, so what.

GWAS said...

I totally agree with you. This shit has become the male version of feminism. Utterly retarded.

Anonymous said...

Captain,

Aggregate Demand Bullshit !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvv-9N-M0lI

Spending is supposed to make a "healthy" economy ?
Low spending makes an economy "sick" ?

This doesn't make sense. Capitalism requires growth.
How will you grow your economy if you need to immediately spend away the wealth that you have just created ?
How will you increase your prosperity if you cannot hold on to it ?

I'm starting to think that GDP is bullshit. Just because there is money changing hands doesn't mean that the economy is adding more prosperity. In fact, GDP might even indicate that the economy is destroying prosperity and getting further in debt.

Low spending is not sick, what is sick is low savings and worse consumer debt.
Our economy is sick because it no longer allows people to save money.

Suppose colonial times settlers were structured like our current economy. A farmer chops wood for winter. He logically wants to chop more wood than he thinks he will need in the winter, he wants wood savings. He wants to make it through the winter without freezing to death.

How is it "sick" that he refuses to waste his saved wood in the first few months of winter ? How is it "unhealthy" that he tries to economize his wood during winter ?

If this farmer would be like today's average US citizen, he would burn all his wood during the first month of winter and then borrow wood from other farmers to make it through the rest of winter. That would be completely silly.

I fail to see how that would be healthy.

Our economy is sick not because there is low demand. Our economy is sick because production is the hostage of demand.

The farmer in the colonial times chopped as much wood as he could even if nobody demanded wood from him. He did not wait for demand before he started chopping wood.

This whole need for demand is the problem. We need to bring back production. We need a production and savings economy, not a consumption and credit economy.

You need to move away from petty subjects like MGTOW and start writing articles on how to bring back production and savings in America.

Nature Boy said...

Oh look, this article again.

A.B. Prosper said...

What Dave said. MGTOW isn't something you are, its something you do.

And yeah a few guys are making money off it, so what? Man's gotta eat.

Anonymous said...

1. Movement with legitimate grievance starts, gains steam
2. Extremists join
3. Extremists and opponents of movement redefine movement as belonging to extremists, hijack from original cause
4. Original members of cause leave, refuse to identify with bastardized version of cause they created
5. Cause becomes completely controlled by extremists, is marginalized, and becomes a fringe movement or does out

This is exactly what happened to feminism and the Tea Party, and it will also, unfortunately, happen to MGTOW. The VirginTOWs are more more focused on hating women and men who associate with women than on being their own men. They aren't just misogynist; they're outright anti-woman.

I agree with the principles of MGTOW, but as a happily married man who believes that there are numerous good women out there, I cannot and will not identify with the term MGTOW at this time due to its unfortunate woman-hating image.

Perhaps the term can be reclaimed in the future.

Anonymous said...

one possible way of leaving the losers out is to associate with a movement like viking supremacy

http://manlyexcellence.com/2012/08/29/viking-supremacy-by-hammer-of-thunor/

Anonymous said...

ahaha stay mad Nature Boy.

Glen Filthie said...

Oh I dunno Cap. If that's the way of it, and dogs define the team... the whole 'Manosphere' is a write-off too.

My two cents is that PUA and MGTOW are both best considered as temporary and excusable coping mechanisms for men to use that have been deeply hurt by feral women - and MGTOW is the far more honourable of the two. I can respect a guy like you puddle jumping in the great outdoors as you put your head together after a nasty relationship. I can forgive you for pumping and dumping everything that moves after a bad breakup too.

But as long term life strategies? Nah - a real man couldn't do it! I feel kinda sorry for the flakes and losers copping out with these movements the same way I feel bad for the hairy chested militant feminist lesbians and other marginal flakes and flimps. A lot of marriages work and work well too. What you youngsters need to remember is that YOU define YOUR marriage - not some liberal cunned stunt at Salon or The New York Slimes. Approach your potential mate the same way your grandfather did in the 1940's and 50's - with a critical eye, a long chaste courtship, and a deep respect for good women! That will weed out the dogs and liberals and save you a pile of heartache in divorce court.

whoism3 said...

You have a point. Tho i still do hang onto the label simply out of convenience because hey... it IS an apt description of what i am doing (i am a man who went his own way, not society's prescribed route).

But i won't disagree with you that a lot of men jumped into it to use it as a shield to stop from any kind of self or personal growth. Join the movement, start slamming the keyboard and blaming everything else except yourself for all your ills. Sounds eerily reminiscent of feminism to be sure.

I guess the principled difference is that MGTOW is a label that actually reflects the actions of the movement - every man in it is going their own way - even the ones we think are going the WRONG way.. it's still their way. I tried explaining to JudgyBitch that MGTOW are a lot like Athiests, it's like trying to herd cats.. you just can't do it because so many do their own thing. The problem came when you had interlopers (lets use the Atheism+ analogy) come in, hijack the philosiphy of every man do what he desires to do into "Women are hypergamous bitches, don't trust them, walk away, end marriage, let the women fall by the wayside,e tc..."

We often used the expression 'Enjoy the Decline' to reflect what we feel is societies decline, but these folks who turned MGTOW into a religious text to be followed like the bible.. they carry that phrase in their hearts and want to see that decline happen just as much as Evangelicals want to see the world burn because it harkens the end times.

So i can sit here saying Cappy, i am a MGTOW.. but i'm that because i came to that conclusion on my own - i didn't need to be convinced of it - and i won't allow someone elses version to be enforced or foisted upon me like a manifesto.

If the label gets too toxic, i will step away from it but continue to live it, no sweat off my back.

JimboSlice said...

If you need a name for it or a club of fellow travelers, you don't get it.

The Question said...

"Are their real world MGTOW's out there, real men, genuinely going their own way? Yes, of course. But they're too busy actually being MGTOW to write about it, let alone care if they're labelled "MGTOW."

Reminds me of an apocryphal story of what Karl Marx's wife once said to him:

"Karl, stop writing about capital and start making some of it."

Anonymous said...

The manosphere in general is pretty bad for this at the moment. Seems like everyone is either shouting about how alpha they are, how all women are evil or trying to sell "surefire ways to get you laid".

minuteman said...

It's always existed, but in the past these men became priests or monks.

nate w said...

No 2 people have the same definition of mgtow, and that's fine. Personally I prefer acronyms that can be pronounced anyway. Thinking dwodgafs. Divorced men who dont gave a crap. I've pried enough leeches off my skin for one lifetime. Maybe leechproof would be a good name.

One Fat Oz Guy said...

I mostly agree with you, however money, unlike stores of wood, lose value over time. Money has value in the economy as long as it keeps moving. If you won a million dollars and took it out as cash and buried it in the ground it would create a hole in the economy.
The economy relies on you spending it, investing it or banking it (where banks will lend against it).
Purposely holding onto it as cash creates problems for the system. Fortunately for the system, there won't be too many people taking a million dollars and stashing it somewhere any time soon.

Anonymous said...

MGTOWs are losers and deserve to be shamed! Good job cappy, we need more of this!

Anonymous said...

I once considered myself MGTOW. I'd "seen it all" in our declining society and decided the offerings weren't what I wanted. The "life in a box" society, and sadly, even the church often pushes upon a person to be considered "acceptable" really chafed at me (some in the church completely forget how early believers went against the grain, but I digress).

MGTOW at first seemed a place to meet some guys who had seen the same things and it was nice seeing I was far from alone in my observations. Along the way, I conversed with a few guys who indeed were the kind of accomplished, self-improving, critically thinking men I strive to be.

Unfortunately, now it often seems to be about who can shout the loudest along with a dictatorial modus operandi where all must be in agreement or be cast out. I'm one who refused to do it "their way". Many other men I know have done the same. You might say many of us have gone beyond MGTOW. Some still consider themselves MGTOW to an extent, but all have rejected the dogmatic attitudes prevalent among many MGTOW today, and gained a lot of peace in the process. Far preferable to a recurring loop of anger and hatred in a self-perpetuating echo chamber.

Carl said...

When a 17 year old boy indoctrinated into MGTOW ideology can pursue a graduate level degree in MGTOW studies and demand university administrative/student tribunals, not subject to prudent legal precedent, to expel girls from university because they won't leave boys alone-yea, unsalvageable.


'Reality' Doug said...

I agree with Dave. Brilliantly pithy comment.

Why vilify men who find it cost effective to be unemployed, play video games, and hate women? Oh yah, they are ruining everything, like the term MGTOW. lol It is cost effective to vilify men who are unemployed, play video games, and hate women, since real men with money hate on soft targets from their keyboards and follow blogs. Losers in the decline are such losers. Here's my advice: (1) Be a winner, (2) Be a winner, and (3) Don't be a loser.

Fidelbogen said...

Rob Fedders originated the term MGTOW?

I have never heard that theory before.

Fidelbogen said...

But seriously, MGTOW is not a club or group. It is an underlying social reality, an impersonal force of history as I have notoriously said. It's like a weather phenomenon -- remove the conditions that spawned in, and it will go away. The name you give to it is completely fucking immaterial.

Anonymous said...

Sandman here......

Moob Ragoom said...

Considering how much they pretty much elevate their assumptions into dogmatic truths with little to no real-world verification or context, with overthought as their only major source of verification, I have to agree with your sentiment.

MGTOW is a cult and the first thing it did to become that way was to refer to everyone in the plural as opposed to the singular.

Moob Ragoom said...

Considering how much they pretty much elevate their assumptions into dogmatic truths with little to no real-world verification or context, with overthought as their only major source of verification, I have to agree with your sentiment.

MGTOW is a fucking cult and the first thing it did to become that way was to refer to everyone in the plural as opposed to the singular.

The Question said...

I have to add one more comment to all of this.

The fakes MGTOWs are those who come to the fork in the road (the MGTOW symbol) but then stop and declare that they're going to go their own way, but never actually "get on with it."

Why? Because they really don't want to go their "own" way. They want everyone to go as a group to get validation and affirmation for their life. So there you see them, perpetually yelling at real MGTOWs to stop as they actually proceed to go their own way, insisting that they wait so that everyone can go the same way together.

Like Rocco said in Boondock Saints 2, there's two types of people, talkers and doers.

"So which one are you? Do you just talk about it? Or do you stand up and do something about it? Because believe you me, all the rest of it is just coffee house BS."

Anonymous said...

Capitalist like your self are just mad that MGTOW are no longer playing the plantation game that fuel capitalism. Women will have to buy they junk like shoes, clothes, and the big house. More and more men are joining MGTOW world-wide. Welcome to the new world order. I am MGTOW

Gus said...

Mr/Mz Captain, remember to be mindful of the fact that all of the manospfere blogs have been infiltrated by feminists meatpuppets and sockpuppets to derail the movement.

Right now MGTOW is in a raw state. Lots of different opinions. As this movement matures , the MGTOW umbrella will include all extremes of man, then remove the unwanted elements.



Anonymous said...

I might take MGTOW seriously if I could find a MGTOW who was actually a man. Most seem to have effeminate, high-pitched, nerdy vocal patterns.

I guess all the real men are out in the real world doing too many real things to bother with the Internet. The Internet is mainly a fantasy world for losers.

Anonymous said...

You are in the internet. ^^

Anonymous said...

I applaud the MGTOW movement in principle, just as I applauded feminism in it's purest form (ie: equal rights for both genders). Both movements became infected with bitter extremists. I saw the same thing happen in other movements - the Humane Societies and animal rescues of the world are being taken over by vegans and animal rights activists who now have ridiculous requirements for adoption. This increased demand for private breeders, who don't require a home inspection when you adopt a dog, which was the opposite of what the animal rights people wanted; they became ineffectual assholes about it instead of being smart and moderate and effecting a positive change. Extremists fuck up everything.

I think it's cool that the original MGTOWs have found fulfillment without having to partake in a social institution that is so obviously failing (with a 50%+ divorce rate, most marriages are pretty fucked). I applaud people from both genders who refuse to do what society demands. I am a woman who does not want children, and my partner feels the same way. We are viewed with suspicion by couples with young kids and I am constantly being told I will regret it. My common law husband and I are happy as we are - we enjoy our intellectual and artistic pursuits and our autonomy. Our identity will not be consumed by offspring, and we both hope to leave behind our memes (ideas) rather than our genes. For the original MGTOWs who are more about independence than the vitriolic, online woman hating, I applaud you.

Mgtow Songs said...

I've never wanted to identify under a particular label as it sets up a target on your back to get shot at and ridiculed or chased out, just like the Atheism label causes christians to think atheists are satanists or evil doers. However MGTOW is a useful search term keyword, as is MRM/MRA.

If not only for its use as a search keyword to look up interesting topics and discussions... nothing more? i.e. it is a catch 22 here. Without the label it is hard to find topics discussing male topics regarding getting shafted by disingenuous women, and how to deal with issues such as relationships, not getting married, etc.

The MGTOW keyword has been proven extremely useful for finding topics, although just like the atheism label one pays a price each time the label is used. MGTOWs are discriminated agains, just like atheists or any other labeled person is, such as a Vegan who is considered a weakling without muscle. Sam Harris calls this taking a hit for using a label and putting a target on your back. Yet he still uses the label "atheism" as a search lookup term on his blog.

Anonymous said...

To me, it's kind of stupid to create this class separation of men that all have the same common frustration.....women.

For the guys that just opt out of women because you want to keep your freedom, your money...that's all fine and well, but don't be a dick to those that are "dating challenged" because women have gotten so picky nowadays.

And vice versa.

Whether you are willingly opting out or not, you are both electing to go your own way...you have no choice...because women are women and are not going to change.

As far as who created MGTOW, I think it's more important to cite the roots of the men's rights movement. I think you'll see it goes much farther back than even the creation of MGTOW.

Pat Riarchy said...

What's the problem with being a confirmed bachelor?

Malcolm Newall said...

The thing is that MGTOW that I see, focuses mostly on why marriage is unsafe for men, and how the system is skewed against them. There are some who go to evolutionary biology, but I believe they were inspired to that by feminism, and the all men shit.

However, in the end, whether women, and others choose to demonize it or not, it will gain a following, not of active and committed people, because that is exactly what it is not. Dr Helen Smith said it best, men are not getting married, because it doesn't make sense anymore. I say this as a man who has been happily married for 23 years, but will also say, I think if I were to be looking today, having come through school in the last 5 or so years, I would not be interested. Too many warning flags thrown with all men, and knowing no matter how hard you try the woman in your life also lives in today's society. Divorce is seen to cost men so well...