Tuesday, October 14, 2008

Yes, Men Do Leave the Market

As many of you know I moonlight at night in a Bruce Wayne/Dark Knight sort of way as a dance instructor. And as I've aged from 23 to my present day 33 in those now approaching 10 years of dance instruction, I've seen the first wave of Gen X'ers age out of their youthful 20's as well as seen a wave of divorcees coming online and back into the "dating" marketplace.

Now for whatever reason it may be, dance tends to attract more women than men and over the years, I've of course befriended several female students. They vary in ages anywhere from 24 to 60, but the one common trait they have is they are typically (though not always) single. And while not always, most of them took dance class half incented to perhaps find a guy.

But what is becoming a more frequent phenomenon is a question these girls ask;

"Where are all the guys?"

I never paid much attention to this, as it has always been the case that men just eschew dance classes, but it wasn't until an older dance student of mine perhaps refined the question a bit and made it more pointed. It wasn't so much "Where are all the guys," as much as it was;

"I just get the feeling there aren't any men anymore. Not just in dance class, but where are all the men from all the various social activities? They make up half the population, but I can't find any single guys to date. They can't all be married, even my female friends are running into this mysterious disappearance of men. Do they like stop trying after a while and just stay home?"

And that's when I realized what she was asking.

"Do you mean, do men give up and don't bother trying to find women any more?" I clarified.

She said, "Yes. So do they?"

"Yes" I answered.

She was somewhat surprised at my response. She said, "so they just give up? They don't go out anymore? Don't they want to find somebody? Anybody?!"

"Yeah, more or less."

"That's crazy! How do they ever expect to find anybody?"

I replied, "Well...they don't."

Regardless, the point was her reaction surprised me in return to see this was that shocking of a revelation to her. I always thought it was kind of common knowledge, men do indeed give up after a while, but apparently it's not. So allow me to explain.

I don't know when precisely it is, nor is it the same for every guy, but inevitably guys in a sense "burn out." Consider it a staged rocket and as the last vestiges of fuel burn out of the booster, it slowly disengages and disintegrates as it plummets back to Earth. Many things can burn out the fuel;

Divorce and the loss of one's assets
Personal finances/loss of job
Demanding/successful career
Or just plain bad dating experiences (your beloved captain has had suicide threats, gotten punched for refusing a girl sex and unknowingly dated a married woman for three months...you get the idea).

But what ultimately results in the decision to exit the market is more of an economic decision. It is the realization that as you have less and less remaining life you have to make surer and surer bets as to how to spend your time. It's no different than switching from equities to bonds as you approach retirement. Ergo, whereas when you were 18 you would stay at a party all night in the hopes of getting a girl's phone number, when you're 25 you start to think about working instead of partying, and by the time you're 30, you rarely go to clubs, dance halls, bars opting instead to play video games at home or read a book or put some more hours in at the office.

The reason is the expected rate of return of your precious, finite, and perpetually dwindling time. If you go out, hot as you may be when you're 18, you have little to no control over succeeding in getting a girl's number or a date. And as experience will tell you it's a 1/20 shot you will succeed, and that's assuming you have good game. All in all, I would estimate most 20 somethings waste an equivalent to 4 full years of full time work chasing girls to relatively little avail. A significant opportunity cost.

The X-Box 360 on the other hand is a guaranteed rate of return.

Working a couple more hours at work, is a guaranteed rate of return.

Even something as simple as lighting up a cigar with your friends and having a good scotch is a guaranteed rate of return.

And dare the Captain admit he enjoys writing for you honyakers and conversing with you as it is a guaranteed rate of return?

And this is what progressively more and more men turn to as they get older. Now I can certainly see the case where a man gets divorced multiple times, losing 50% of his assets each time as it would accelerate the burning the fuel, but this phenomenon goes beyond married and divorced men. This is merely anecdotal and I'd certainly be welcoming of any other guys out there who have noticed this, but whereas all of 10 years ago nearly 100% of my male friends were looking for a wife, now I think in my group of friends less than 25% of them are, none of which have ever been married all of which are under 45. The rationale is it was too burdensome to go out on the "prowl." The idea of paying a cover to go to a club to yell at some stranger over loud music while paying $10 for parking and having to hike 10 blocks in DT Minneapolis is not appealing.

Going to the local sports bar to feign interest in "Brandi" as she talks about the latest issue of People Magazine or American Idol pales in comparison to shooting Nazi's online with your video gaming buds.

And wasting the hour setting up a Match.com profile because your friend gifted you a free month subscription and swore you'd meet chicks is nowhere near as fun as talking politics over a cigar and scotch with intellectual friends (and I want that hour of my life back by the way Jeff!).

Ergo (and again, this is just what I've personally observed) there is a (dare I say) mass exodus of men out of the dating market and into their own little bachelor worlds and this may go a long way in explaining why you don't really see us out there.

Now again, this is just what I've observed and has been seemingly corroborated by the experiences of many different women I've ran into, but we could be wrong. But I would be very curious of any junior, deputy, official or otherwise bachelor economists out there have seen the same thing.

_______________________________

Aaron Clarey is a mean evil sexist poopey head that tells people the truth and hurts their feelings.  He is also the author of "Bachelor Pad Economics," "Worthless," and "Enjoy the Decline."  He also hosts a weekly podcast full of hate, sexism and meanie-ness solely for the purpose of being a jerk, and operates his own consulting company, Asshole Consulting.

71 comments:

Anonymous said...

To your otherwise fine analysis I would add only that men also probably derive less utility from a failed attempt at meeting women than women do at a failed attempt at meeting men. Women attempting to meet men are on average probably more likely than men to do something they would otherwise enjoy, i.e. your dance class.

Men attempting to meet women, on the other hand, are expected to do things generally less appealing to them .

Doug S said...

Two thoughts.
1) I noticed that recently divorced women made up a large percentage of my students back when I was teaching dance, and these women would always have a hard time following. I realized that they had trust issues, and couldn't "just follow."

2) Since I've been in the state of marriage, I have removed myself from the dance scene. In part, because I moved to a city without a strong dance following, and was tired of dancing with beginners. Also, my interests changed to other things. Fly-fishing, for instance. Painting miniatures and gaming (the Dungeons and Dragons kind, not the video kind).

These activities allowed my introverted nature time to deal with the realities of life and work: I spend time with my wife every day, and I spend time with people at work every day, and this more than fills my social needs. I don't 'need' to spend time with other people in that fashion anymore.

The downside is that I get berated by my former dance partners for not coming out and dancing as much. You know, now that I "found the girl" I don't have to play the field. Never mind that playing the field was antiethical to my whole belief system.

So, yes, Captain. We get tired of the drama and the lights and the noise, and want to sit down in a nice leather chair for some peace and quiet. We want to stand in the middle of a river and hope that a smallmouth hits the muddler minnow we tied on. We focus on earning more or climbing the ladder because that's how we eat.

Seeing the dating scene now, there's no way I'll ever go back into it. I love my wife, but I'm glad she doesn't want to go dancing much anymore.

Anonymous said...

gotten punched for refusing a girl sex

You're misremembering that time your right hand found out that you were cheating on it with your left.

Ryan Fuller said...

Consider me a dating scene dropout. I've had a grand total of one serious relationship/brush-with-matrimony, it didn't end well, and I'm in no rush to throw myself into awkward social situations with women again in the hope that maybe next time it'll be better.

I'm a bit older now and I know what I enjoy and what I want, and damned if dating isn't really, really far down the list. Below hanging out with my buddies, video games, economics, and anime, actually. Since I already have enough access to the above to completely ruin my life if I so choose, I don't see dating becoming a priority for the foreseeable future. Since I take my religion's proscription against premarital sex seriously, there's even less chance the whole thing will pay off somehow.

Then again, women might have better luck finding men if they looked where the men are: doing Man Things(tm) that men enjoy, which not coincidentally aren't the same things that men do when they're out looking for women.

Just for some bonus cynicism, has anyone else ever noticed the kind of guys that women seem to flock to? It's like dating is just Search and Rescue for the emotionally damaged.

Robert Miller said...

In San Francisco, the dating scene is caustic.

The pretty boys and girls dress up in their designer clothes, drive their leased Beemers to the wine bars, sushi restaurants, and chi chi clubs every Thursday and Friday night.

They meet, they date, they take trips to Tahoe and Napa. After a while, one or the other realizes that they're tired of that relationship and they move on to the next one. Each claims that they were the "dumper" instead of the "dumpee."

It's like a square dance - from one partner to the next and they're perpetually unhappy with the person they've got. If all this dating around were part of the fun, that's ok. But when you're unhappy all the time, it's a sign you're doing something wrong.

So, the women all go out together and say, "All the good men are either taken or gay." The problem is that they won't give an average looking Joe with a "normal" car the time of day. No matter how "feminist" they think they are, they all want the men to pay the bill for dinner, dates, and trips.

If a woman is single, it's entirely by choice. For every woman, there exists a man who will love her.

If a woman is always unhappy, it's because she chooses a-holes all the time.

Anonymous said...

As a bachlor male, all I can say is ...where are all these eligible women?

I ballroom dance socially and I got to tell you, unless you are over 50 the pickings are mighty slim in my neighbourhood. Lot's of later middle aged bitter divorcees with issues that make "can't follow" the least of my worries.

Kasia said...

Not having a Y chromosome, I am ill qualified to speculate. I will simply say that, if the following is true:

Or just plain bad dating experiences (your beloved captain has had suicide threats, gotten punched for refusing a girl sex and unknowingly dated a married woman for three months...you get the idea).

...one could hardly fault someone for heading for the hills.

That said, clubs are chock full of Brandis. If you're looking for a woman with a brain, I'd wager that your dance class is much more likely to yield potential dating prospects.

Justin said...

Weird; I had the exact same thought earlier today while walking to class.

I think women are just a pain in the ass, plain and simple. Sometimes it's just way easier to spend a night with the Xbox than to fool with pretending to care about what they're saying. I'm never right half the time with girls anyway, so it's much easier just to step out of the game for a little bit and re-evaluate.

Who knows -- maybe women will react to the supply/demand of dating and the market will adjust itself accordingly?

My dad put it pretty simply:

"Women: can't live with them, can't legally kill them."

Anonymous said...

I left the market early.

It's like when you first try out the stock market, if the first two or three stocks you buy lose money, you're out of the game for life. Same deal, two bad outings and I left the ladies market.

Wasn't given any incentive to stay.

--regular guy

Alex said...

Well said, Cap! The first commenter added an important point too. When I was younger I went out to the bars, hit the nightclubs on a daily basis, and went to all the big house parties. My batting average was decent, and a lot of my friends envied my successes - probably because they were unaware of the majority of my failures. But you know what? Thinking back to it, I rarely had any fun. Sure you get a temporary sense of accomplishment after nailing the hottest chick in the club ... a sense of accomplishment which quickly fades when you see her at the same club the next night, going home with a different guy. The only times that were REALLY fun were the rare nights when nobody cared about "picking up", and I could just relax and hang out with good friends.

Kasia brings up a good point too - once I stopped caring about women and started doing things which I actually enjoyed, I ended up meeting women who were a hell of a lot more interesting than the ones at the bars, clubs, and dance lessons. Hell, last year I went to a museum for the first time since my teens, and ended up meeting a gorgeous redhead with whom I had a great time. Women are everywhere - you don't need to go out to the meat markets in order to meet them. So why would I waste my time, energy, and money, going out to meet desperate women who need a man in order to feel worthwhile?

John said...

I have in the past left the market, though I'm currently giving it...let's call it one last kick at the cat.

Second date with bachelorette #1 was last Tuesday. She was as pleasant as during the first date, but her distinctly uninteresting personality definitely started to come out. And her complaints. About everything. Not in a, "wow, everything sucks" kind of way. Instead, it was a far more subtle, low-level whine about things she doesn't like.

I had to spring $50 for two hours of her company (some sushi, sashimi, tempura, and a couple of green teas). With nary an offer to pay half. Not that I would have accepted it, mind, even though I considered my time more as professional services rendered instead of time well spent.

I have a female friend who has been on the market for a while. She dates for sport. But I think what she hadn't thought about until I brought it up (and even now, doesn't much care) is that she gets to date for free. She gets taken for coffee. Then dinner. Then dinner and drinks. Last weekend, to the coast for Canadian Thanksgiving (in fairness, he's now a steady and they're both officially off the market). I, on the other hand, because of the presence of my penis, get to be the one who actually ponies up for those things.

It's not that I don't want to pay. I do. I consider it an honor and this is not a complaint. But there is most certainly a cost to dating for men...for me, at least. A genuine, cash-money, directly out-of-my-pocket-and-onto-the-table cost to taking a girl out. It tempers my enthusiasm for sport dating, because I must weigh it against all of the other things that I want to acquire.

Relationship. Continental GT. Relationship. Continental GT. You know, I don't think I need to deliberate too long to realize which one will actually provide a smoother and more reliable ride.

Anonymous said...

I was burnt out for about 3 years.

Dating became increasingly more unappealing.

I began to ask myself if I was being too picky. I wouldn't ask for a character or personality trait in another that I wasn't personally prepared to match.

I just wanted a responsible, drama-free, non-overweight woman, who didn't suffer from "entitlement" disease and that knew how to save money instead of spending money like there was an expiration date written on it.

After years of dating I gave up.
It just wasn't worth the headaches. Most women I've met expected too much, cannot ratiocinate accurately, or in my experience I believe they overvaluated themselves much like Lehman Brothers did. Ouch! but I believe it's true.

Since then, when I least expected it. I met the best woman I could ever ask for. We are in a very healthy happy relationship.

I realized that, I wasn't asking for too much after all.

from micro.investor@yahoo.com

Kasia said...

Ryan Fuller:

Just for some bonus cynicism, has anyone else ever noticed the kind of guys that women seem to flock to? It's like dating is just Search and Rescue for the emotionally damaged.

I could say the same about women that men seem to flock to. I think a lot of people just are very damaged, and are attracted to the worst people for them.

And good for you about the abstinence thing. I thought my fiancé was a pretty rare find for being willing to honor *my* convictions on that. A guy who's committed to it himself is quite remarkable.

Anonymous said...

I still 'date', but it is mostly just having dinner or coffee with a couple female friends. What makes it a 'date', I suppose is that they are interested in me, I think, but I have become essentially numb to any idea of a relationship.

Rammstein covers the the topic nicely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k-vPv-XEpg

Loosely translated as "I have no desire".

Anonymous said...

I'm probably not really qualified to comment on this as I've been married for well over 3 years, and attached for 5-6, but I was talking to a single friend, and she claimed that dating has costs for women too. Like getting a manicure, buying a new outfit, etc. I never did any of this before going on a date, so I guess it only has costs for SOME women.

Junam

P.S. When I was still dating, I usually offered to pitch in. I never had good experiences with the guy who EXPECTS you to pay on the first date though.

Anonymous said...

Lots of thoughtful comments here. However, John really cracked me up with this gem: "I, on the other hand, because of the presence of my penis, get to be the one who actually ponies up for those things."

Thanks, John - that really made me laugh. (in a good way.)

BTW, you know the technical term: You are a Phallic American. And damn proud of it!

The Big Seester

Anonymous said...

Simple cost benefits analysis.

Men have needs. The utility gained from a woman over my hand is marginal. The cost of a woman over my hand is gargantuan.

Anonymous said...

I tend to agree. When I was a teenager the girls my age didn't want anything to do with me because they were chasing after the older guys.

So I spent my teen years playing video games.

When I reached my 20's, women were interested in those tall, good looking guys. Even the average girls I approached. Heck, even the obese girls wanted nothing to do with me.

Then when I reached my late 20's, women were interested in me(more likely my money).

They'd date me if I had a job - any job - and was going anywhere.

It seems most males do not care any longer about getting married and having children. A decision that lead to this fallout of men in the dating world.

But you know, I spent all of my life without sex and female attention. Now I look around, see most women being infected with HPV(linked to oral and prostate cancer) and herpes.

I see these women putting out like it's Christmas to the bad boys and the Brad Pitts and I sincerely cannot find myself interested in women anymore.´

Even if a virginal 18 year old woman wanted something to do with me, I wouldn't be into her.´

My xbox360 gives me all the pleasure I need, all the attention I could want for.

It's quite funny how women didn't want anything to do with me when they were young, tight and std free but now that they're loose, std infected and old... I'm like honey.

Now they complain that I don't want to man up.

Gotta love their cognitive dissonance.

dhurka said...

All this talk about Xbox just makes me think you guys need to grow up. You man-children need to realize that a real man games on a PC or at least a PS3 :D

Anonymous said...

Anon. 3:40 PM said:

"Simple cost benefits analysis.

Men have needs. The utility gained from a woman over my hand is marginal. The cost of a woman over my hand is gargantuan."

Brilliant. And true, much more true than meets the eye.

Justin said:

"I think women are just a pain in the ass, plain and simple."

Also very true. Some of us guys enjoy drama-free, low-stress lifestyles. Insert an entitled drama queen into the equation and you have paradise lost. No amount of hole will offset her mood swings, whiny behavior and entitlement mentality.

DJ said...

North American women have little to offer. I'm 39, still have my looks, and can't be bothered with spoiled, self centred, entitled N. American women anymore - they're too much of a risk.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if part of it could be men's dropping testosterone levels in the industrialized world. I'm 28 and don't pursue girls at all and actually try to avoid situations where I would be forced to interact with single women.

There are a lot of intellectual or rational reasons for this that are described throughout the manosphere, but I wonder if the deep underlying reason is that I am not horny anymore.

When I was 18 no amount of reasoning would have made me stop pursuing girls (in my then very inept manner). Now I really don't feel that attracted to them. Sure, I'd be happy if they took off their shirt, but I wouldn't go to any trouble to convince them to. Heck, a lot of the time I'm too lazy to look at porn.

Jesse Edmunds said...

Very nice article. The comments were very insightful as well, especially the one about cost-benefit analysis.

IMO vigorous dating is simply not worth it at all unless you want kids/a relationship.

The pain/pleasure reward benefit just isn't there.

I wonder if women will be adapting to this change or perhaps both sexes will simply be holding back in a stalemate?

Anonymous said...

Damn. This is exactly where I am right now. So sick of the dating scene that I haven't had a date in years. I am into my career, my cars, my motorcycles and my dog rescue group. People are always trying to fix me up but I am honestly not interested anymore. I'm tired of the bullshit and I have better things to do, especially when every women my age approaches me with a suspicious glare and asks my why I am still single.

I guess I'm not the only one.

Single White Male said...

I just wrote about this on my own blog and it was initially received a little strangely, but I didn't word it quite as well as you did.

Area plays a large portion in this too. I live in the greater DC are and this part of the country is known for how BAD the dating scene is for men.

I'm only 23 and because of the low quality of women out there I'm already wising up enough to start to compare the value of my time and what I get in return.

Absolutely great post, glad to see I'm now alone

Captain Capitalism said...

Better start reading Roissy. He's in that area.

Alek Novy said...

I referenced you as related-reading in my post on the same subject:

http://aleknovy.com/2010/01/17/why-men-are-increasingly-prefering-videos-games-over-dating-mating-and-courtship/

Papabear said...

We can see a strong theme running through this forum about how much it costs a man to get laid; not only in monetary terms, but in the patience and tolerance required to spend time with loose tramps who no longer regard or even pretend to market their charms as 'exclusive'.
It makes it sound like all us men want is to get laid and all we need is a fat wallet to have success at that. But for that, there are honest prostitutes; women who are professionally educated, concerned and attentive about hygiene and far more expert at sex-for-pleasure than even the most enthusiastic amateur. Most importantly, whores only charge the guy enjoying their physical charms at the time, for a prior and specifically specified fee. Girlfriends and wives just spend as much as they can get and then run-up menu bills and credit card debts for the man to cover.
The worst scum of the earth, however, are ex wives who continue to charge their ex husbands for pleasuring some other guy!
If the husband dumps the wife or loses her through cheating on her or being violent or hurting her in any way; that is his burden and his just deserts for breaching contract. But if she leaves him for another; why shouldn't the other guy pay for shafting her? Why should the cuckolded husband have to pay for that too? To add injury to insult? There is something wrong with the 'no-fault' divorce laws.
To those of you who now find yourselves in what you believe to be settled relationships; I wish you well and good luck. It's all to do with mutual trust in one life-partner. There is a lot to be gained from that. But it's the riskiest deal in the world.
Me? I was married for 27 years to a woman 17 years my junior who dumped me on my 65th birthday. No charges of maltreatment have been laid or even alleged against me by her. Just a big bill and monthly fee I have to pay her to pleasure someone else.

Mare Bear said...

I don't think just men leave the market. I am a woman who has left the market herself. The idea of having to face someone and discuss the virtues of Xbox has left me cold. I have tried marriage a couple of times and have lost half of everything I've worked for as well. My son just graduated HS and for the first time in years, I get my place to myself!! I am LOVING it!! I do as I please and the thought of having anyone in my place is totally unpalatable to me. Sure I get asked out pretty often, but I am burned out. I don't feel like dealing with any of the dating bs any more. Its just more fun to work on my projects, hang out with my girlfriends and have interesting conversations and have my home the way I like it.

The times I have been asked out, men themselves are shocked when I say I am not dating. I am an attractive person and can hold my own out there. Men have flat out asked me why I am not dating and whether or not I like guys!! Wow!! Of course I like guys, I gave birth to one of you for God sake, lol. The truth is you boiled it down right here, I am burnt out. I have had a child, have done the marriage thing, and am really enjoying my life as it is. What's wrong with that? I don't like bars, clubs or the match.com thing. I am focusing on starting a new business that I love. Life is good. Why rock the boat.

Thank you for describing exactly how I feel. I know you meant this for men, but I think this could explanation could easily go both ways.

Captain Capitalism said...

Welcome to the club.

Just don't relapse 2 years from now when the genetics start kicking in.

Martian Bachelor said...

Those clueless dance class women...I gave up at age 15, reassessed and gave up again ~10 years later, and then independently invented my own version of what's now called PUA/game years before anyone was writing books about it. In fact, by the time it became popular I'd already moved on to other interests. So I've never really been part of their market. For bunches of reasons.

The funny thing is, I've been hearing my entire adult life about this great man
shortage. I'm supposed to be in short supply and high demand. Well, there's a well-developed psychology of shortages, and women just dont exhibit the characteristics -- except for the complaining. Too many women just come across as you-know-whats who are always getting shortchanged one way or the other by men.

Far from being the smart, capable, achieving women we're told about all the time, they come across as incompetents stuck in their Cinderella Complexes, waiting around passively for their princes to show up on their doorsteps.Unless a guy is fulfilling their role expectations, he's as good as invisible to them. Which is as it should be.

If you want people at your dance, you have to invite them. Duh.

Anonymous said...

Wow, this forum is awesome! I think that all the previous posts do a great job of summing up why guys hate dating, or at least why guys like me hate dating. I am in my early 30's and even if I do say so myself, I look better now then I ever have before-I'm in great shape, a full head of thick hair and since I'm not a sun worshiper or a smoker (of cigarettes that is) my skin looks great, on top of that I finally have some money saved and am generally in a good place financially, so I should basically be a "great catch." But, that far from how I feel in terms of the few dating experiences I have had over the past year. I went out a couple of times with two girls, one I knew through friends and the other that I had actually met on a cross country flight. They were both nice enough girls from the outset, but after getting to know they a little better my opinion changed. At various points in my brief courtships with these girls they both made mention to other guys they they were seeing-this made absolutely NO sense to me whatsoever and still can not figure it out, in fact the only thought that I had when they said this to me was "Don't sleep with them" which I thought for the following reasons: 1) If a woman is seeing multiple guys at the same time and presumably sexually active them, then the chances that she may have an STD are elevated over a woman who is only active with one guy at a time, 2) Seeing multiple guys at the same time says to me that she expects guys to compete for her attention, 3) It simply bad form, and quite frankly rather trashy to tell someone on a first or second date that you are seeing other guys. Mind you, they didn't say this to me because they were trying to send me a hint that they weren't interested in me, I am a perfect gentleman and both of continued to talk to me after our "dates," I was the one who stopped talking to them. To be honest, I didn't even think that either of these girls were all that good looking, they weren't outright dogs, I mean I do have some standards, they were attractive but I have have dated/hooked up with much better looking girls then either of them. Anyway, I to me these experiences just reinforces my opinion that there just aren't many decent, upstanding "nice" girls out there to date. What I mean is that if I am going to invest the time, money and energy into dating then I'd want to go out with a girl who at least has the basic understanding of how you are supposed to behave on a date-what happened to women trying to entice men by playing hard to get which is much sexier then a girl who blurts out all the sorted details of her sex life. Anyway, I think that this post really captures how a lot of guys feel in terms of dating-yes we are most certainly in the 21st century and times may have changed, but if women still expect men to act old fashioned by holding doors and picking up the bill then I think that is only far that men expect women to do the same-be nice, charming and sweet and for god sakes at least pretend that they aren't easy floozies because an easy lay really isn't worth an STD.

Anonymous said...

I’m from Ontario, Canada. When I was in my early 30’s I too had it with over-demanding Canadian women. I was trying as hard as I could to meet them, be nice to them, kind and caring to them, but they treated me like garbage, toying with me, and just using me as an ATM machine to try to get whatever they wanted from me, and did not care about me or my feelings in any way. So when I reached my mid 30’s ( in 1999 ) I decided to search for a wife somewhere else. I went to Russia and met and married what I thought was a kind and caring lady who had a difficult life there. I brought her to Canada and I tried to be a nice kind and caring husband. Well, it turned out that foreign women are just as weird as local Canadian women. I did everything for my ex-wife, I even cured a fatal disease that she had that was slowly killing her. And what did she do for my kindness?: She met a ‘bad boy’ in her accounting school class ( That I was paying for by the way) and she had a relationship with him. A year later she demanded a divorce so that she could ‘be’ with him. 7 years of marriage over just like that. Thank GOD I had the insight to demand she sign a pre-nup before marriage as she would have gone after everything I had. I only wanted her to be happy so I did as she asked (with the exception that I did not give her any money as she was demanding), I even helped her to move her stuff so that she could be with the man who she told me she loved. But that other guy was smart, he left her 6 months later as he too got tired of her ‘princess’ ways. Now I’m 48 and while I would still love to meet a nice kind and caring lady, I find that those women simply don’t exist in the real world. So now I’ve got a new pet cat and I get all the love and caring from her that I need. And if I need sex …. ? Well, that part of life is dead and gone, sadly. But even in that marriage there was not any sex, maybe once a week if I was lucky but she didn’t want it anymore than that. So marriage was a fun experience, it showed me how empty that institution really is for men and how there is not much in it for men. I do want to have children of my own, but now I realize that the only way to have children of my own is to earn a ton of money and then adopt my own children. If you try to get married to have children the only thing that will happen is that she will cheat on you, take you to court and take away half your stuff, then move to some place far away so that you will never see your kids ever again, yet you will have to pay financial support for the rest of your life for those kids you will never see. Thank God I didn’t have kids with my ex-wife or I would be screwed like that right now! So I don’t see any benefits to having a relationship with women: They cannot give you children as they will simply take the kids away, but leave you with the debts of caring for them. If you want sex and get married then that will soon stop, (maybe once a month if you are lucky), yet you will have to pay for her support / clothes / food / etc. anyways. It is so much easier and cheaper (and better) to simply visit escorts and adopt children on your own, then for love and companionship get 2 pet cats to keep you company in the cold nights.

3rd Millenium Men said...

This is extremely thought provoking but quite scary. Going to put it into a Best of the Manosphere very soon.

Captain Capitalism said...

3rd, you should look at

"The 30-40 Something Woman Who Wouldn't Leave Me Alone"

"The Minimalism Threat"

"Economics of Courtship"

Those are better than this.

ar10308 said...

Regarding the Follow aspect of dance, I've been learning Lindy Hop for about 2.5 months now, so I am getting pretty decent as a Lead. I still have a lot of work to do on transitions and implementing the various moves we learn each week, but I'm rather happy with my progress.

This past weekend there was a very big party for a certain dance club's 1 year anniversary in decently size mid-Atlantic city. There was a huge range of ages there (the club doesn't serve alcohol, so there were some minors in attendance). For the second song, I asked a very pretty, slender and young brunette to dance. I asked her for experience level, and she said she had only taken the free lesson once but that she liked to spin. So spin her I did. She was one of the best follows I'd ever led, despite having so little experience she just went where I led her, swung-out and spun as I told her. She just flowed. It was great. She had the warmest smile on her face the entire time. As soon as the song ended and I brought her back to her friends, and she was immediately asked to dance by someone else. Turns out, she was in High School and her mom had taken her and 2 of her friends to this dance hall instead of their Homecoming dance because that is where they wanted to go (mom stood off in the distance, keeping an eye on them).

Contrast to later that evening, an older (at least 50s) woman asked me to dance, so I obliged. She was nearly impossible to lead. She was rigid, immobile, unresponsive and gave me no smile. I've danced with other older women, and most weren't nearly so difficult to lead.

It made me realize that if I am going to marry a woman (I'm 28), that one of her qualities is that she must be very easy to lead. There also comes a point in a woman's life where she is no longer able to follow if she hasn't been practicing it.

MarkyMark said...

Gee, do I spend a couple of hours on a bad date with a PITA bitch, or do I spend those same couple of hours working on my bike? Working on my bike will give me a better return and more enjoyment. Yeah, I'm out of the market too...

Anonymous said...

Did anyone ever consider the effects of soy in the food supply on todays men?. Its insidious and quite emasculating. I think this is partly to blame for lack of desire and other unmanly traits

Anonymous said...

"just wanted a responsible, drama-free, non-overweight woman, who didn't suffer from "entitlement" disease and that knew how to save money instead of spending money like there was an expiration date written on it."

I think that sums up my current thoughts on dating.

I'm divorced and in my late 40's and I'm frequently finding that women as they get older act more entitled and are less fun to be around as I get to know them. So far all I've been willing to provide such women is a carrousel ride but nothing more. I never understood the attraction to younger women until now.

Anonymous said...

As a man who divorced over a decade ago, I can attest to the fact that, despite being athletic, articulate, and successful, I have more or less left the dating market because it just isn't worth the time, effort, and expense involved. In other words, your analysis is spot on. As you say, my bachelor activities are very much more rewarding.

Anonymous said...

Too much "dating is bad" talk for my blood. Just as many bad/good women as good/bad men. My bad dates were due to me picking wrong the wrong woman to go out with or saying yes when my gut said to finesse a polite no. But overall, dating is fun. As a guy, pay the bill. When I want the cost to be negligible, I go somewhere inexpensive. My goodness, Yelp.com takes the risk out of going somewhere you wished you had not. Look, the only person I can control is me. I read a book per month, work at my profession hard, I juice vegetables and fruits every morning to stay fit, eat what I want the rest of the time; work out at the gym once or twice a week, say hello to just about everybody I come in contact - it's easier to be friendly than stand-off-ish; I go to church weekly, and when I don't know what I want to do, do a movie solo or even eat out by myself. If I wanted, I could go on a date every weekend with someone I just met or would like to go again. Believe me, I ran into a few sophisticates who danced circles around me intellectually, and the reverse. It was always a fine time and polite. I dated women who hadn't read a book in years, watched a lot of television, but when I said let's go to a museum on its free admission day or go downtown to for a 1st Friday stroll, they told me no one ever asked them to have fun that way. I like video games but they don't talk back to me intelligently, so I play them 5x a year, if that often. Every woman I've met is un-perfect, but I love them. Even the "carrying baggage" one possess charm that eventually comes out because I keep smiling, laughing and exploring until we hit on something we connect. No, we don't do another date, but I had a good time. I'm not a fool. God put men and women on earth for good reason, to enjoy each others company. Keep dating my brethren. Just be smart about it and have fun.

Anonymous said...

I’ve been a part of the dance scene for years, and many male dancers appear to have given up dating. They arrive alone to dances and group classes, dance and maybe talk to a few friends, and leave alone. I never hear them talk about relationships or dating. There are several reasons for this.

Most men start dancing because they heard it was a good place to meet women, but this is largely a myth. Beginning male dancers have very low social status because they look and feel horrible compared to the advanced male dancers (the top 20%), who are many orders of magnitude better. An advanced male dancer can give a beginning female a joyous feeling on the dance floor. In comparison, a beginning male is painful, uncomfortable, and boring to dance with. Beginning males are aware of their low status and act timid and unconfident, making them even more undesirable in the eyes of women.

Life sounds good for the advanced male dancer, but most of them do not take advantage of their status because men who are good with women both on and off the dance floor and are available for dating are extremely rare.

Some advanced male dancers are professional dance teachers and their studio has a non-fraternization policy, believing that teachers dating students would poison the pool of potential customers. Other advanced male dancers have wives/girlfriends who are also their dance partner. These advanced men, who make other men look bad, are largely unavailable for dating.

Still other advanced male dancers became advanced by obsessively practicing and taking lessons for years, hoping this will make them desirable to women. They started dancing because they were boring betas, introverted, not good looking, or lacked game and were mostly unsuccessful with women. They might be king on the dance floor, but off the dance floor they are still undesirable, and the good feeling that women had for them for 4 minutes on the dance floor quickly fades and does not carry over into dating.

Anonymous said...

I opted out of dating a very long time ago. My time is too precious to be wasted on silly games, princess syndrome, entitlement and shallow attention seekers.

To top that off, a lot of the attention Ive received from women were mostly ones who were trying to cheat, had boyfriends already, were bored of their husbands or already had children, lots of emotional baggage and an ex they hated.

Others who were single seemed great at first until I realised they had very little personality, interests, hobbies or simply spoke nonsense. I blame that on them being given privileged treatment due to their looks in some cases.

I also noticed some women felt the need to volunteer information about their sexual past that was shown to be lies.

I can't think of any real reasons for me to bother with dating or pursuing women, id rather learn something new, read a book, play a PC game, workout, go for a walk or anything that is enjoyable without drama, unreasonable expectations or bs.

I have a lot to offer, self respect, a sense of humour and so much more but I refuse to pander to some spoilt little princess ever. It is just not worth the payoff. Many who talk to me think that I have been burned by women and now have adopted this new attitude. I assure you this has never happened, Ive never been burned, never been married and haven't been treated bad. I simply see things for what they are.


The funny thing is, it never has been worth the trouble but men were just too blinded by lust to realise this.

Men, I urge you to try your best to think with your mind and ignore all impulses of lust when you make a decision.

This is what will get you a better deal in the end and it has been many of your weaknesses for far too long. As soon as you can do this, you will see everything for exactly what it is and you will feel empowered!

whisker child said...

PapaBear:

You were married to a woman 17 years your junior?

You're too goddam old for her- I would never have gone out with you in the first place, with that age difference.

You 'bought' her, didn't you? And look what happened.

Anonymous said...

The harsh reality is that women don't want men - they want security. They are pathologically afraid of being alone. For a woman, being alone is a very negative thing; for a guy, it's a neutral position.
Women always throw up the tired saying that men are afraid of committing; but that's not true: men are highly cautious about what they commit to, knowing that they face losing a great deal in a bad choice. Women are well known to exploit men for money, and the last thing a guy wants is to lose 20 years of financial progress to a manipulator.

Anonymous said...

33/M/Mensa/PhD/finance

Status:
- off the market.

Reasons:
- was not attractive enough in college to have sex (boyish/not manly)
- despises becoming "husband material" security provider around 30yr
- fears divorce rape

Anonymous said...

30/M/Single/Childless/STEM degree

Average/Average/Average

Just had second consecutive dateless/sexless year, and I think I'm okay with it.

I'm done.

Anonymous said...

Well I can only relate as a "regular guy", as such I can tell you that it is very much like your analogy of staged rocket boosters losing fuel. When at the age of 33 you've attempted thousands of times to even get a date (apparently women hate short men even if they're shorter than you) and spent 8 years on dating sites without a single message at all then ... yes ... you get the idea that being a "good man" has nothing to do with getting a date.

Anonymous said...

Can I just cut-n-paste Papa Bear's comment and call it my own?

Anonymous said...

look up MGTOW.

I was one of those didn't find my self till I was 26 guys. Now that I am on the market 4 years latter at 30 I am constantly burned out on having to swallow this pill about what I am supposed to be. No I am not your white knight I don't want to pay your bills. I can't marry you and give you kids in 3 months flat.

Also just plain money wise 60$ for a date and we have zero chemistry. Well screw that.

Bryan said...

Do we give up? Yes. A man's life without a woman is easy, not complicated and for the most part carefree. If we say on a scale from 1-10that a woman gets a 10 out of a relationship, what does a guy get? A whole lot less for a whole lot more self-created drama, never-ending sh*t tests, emotional manipulation, etc., etc., etc. If you've ever dated a needy drama queen, it might make you seriously question the whole dating thing. Shouldn't a woman compliment your life and not complicate it?

Add to this the near-certainty of divorce and how the man will be absolutely screwed over, how his divorced friends and male family members will advise him not to get married if he is thinking about it, and how his married friends will secretly, if not overtly, admire the freedoms of a single guy. Saying how lucky he is to be free and unencumbered, not having to deal with a crazy, bitter, bitchy woman who for the most part wasn't like that before she said "I do."

Now if a man is in his 30s or 40s, and has been initiated into the Red Pill and realizes the true nature of women, odds are he'll never marry, and if he does it will be a much younger woman who at least still has her beauty and hasn't become a older bitter bi*ch. If he is going to endure her self-created drama and never-ending sh*t tests, then at least he will enjoy her beauty while it lasts. fair trade if you ask me.

Poetic justice in a way, how the guys who would make great husbands are ignored by women while they squander their beauty riding the carousel, only to later find out most guys have either given up or wisened up to the rigged game and don't want to put up with a woman who has hit the wall or soon will.

Anonymous said...

If you no game, the chance of finding a girl is pretty much zero, even less that 1/20. Trying to go that route will burn you out very quickly. By senior year of college I was done, opting instead to become a full-time pothead.

Now two years later after taking the red pill, I'm trying again. Still an uphill battle though.

Anonymous said...

It's pretty simple. Women aren't worth the hassle. They act entitled and expect you to roll out the red carpet for them because that's what they are used to from birth. Suddenly they aren't as young as they used to be, they don't have the dating skillsets that men have. They expect men to dance to their tune but don't actually bring anything to the table themselves. They expect you to come to them but they won't come to you.

"Where have all the men gone?" We got tired of all the womens' s--t!

Anonymous said...

Honestly, i'm not a very big fan of this generation's feminazi women. They're alcohol guzzling, foul mouthed, loud, opinionated, entitled, promiscuous, know it alls that get together to talk about how stupid guys are. I'd rather hang out with my guy friends. Granted there are some really sweet, humble, grounded ladies out there, but they're quite difficult to find.

Anonymous said...

Over at http://www.reddit.com/r/theredpill, from whence this page is linked, they call this Alpha Fux, Beta Bucks, or AFBB. (Can't agree with all of it, but they make some good points.)

Anonymous said...

There might be a stronger correlation to beauty than emotionally damaged. I don't see baggage ridden fatties getting fawned over. Men are not typically attracted to bitchiness as some are to assholeness.

Dude IS Best said...

In present day, why would a man date? Seriously consider that for a second. Why would I take a girl out three times, pay for dinner and drinks to either find that shes boring and entitled or just entitled? All for mediocre sex because lets be honest guys, women aren't exactly the funnest to hangout with.

I'm only 22 and I refuse to play this wasteful game of inflating women's egos. Time is better spent making money and playing videogames. Not to mention banging a call girl or two to get those sexual frustrations out of the way. SUDDENLY, my life is much simpler. Work, relax, fuck and play video games. No putting up with solipsistic money leecher or an overly entitled babbling machine.

Sure, in yoyr politcally correct world women are different but in reality...here in the real world we live in: they are all the same. And as a gender, their value has plummeted due to feminism. Too many want the respect men get without any responsibilities. YOU pay for dinner because society tells you thats what men do. You have to justify ot for yourself but quit lying. If she isn't good company and isn't sleeping with you, are you honestly admitting that here mere presence is worth $50 or more?

While you deal with childish emotions, men like myself are truely enjoying life. Amd we will not be entering the dating pool until these adult aged children grow up and start to take some responsibilities. Theres a reason that men are giving up and its because WE DON'T LIKE TO WASTE OUR TIME

Anonymous said...

22/M/Single/Professional Athlete

STATUS:
Gave up on the market

REASONS:
-Nothing worth dating
-Escorts cost less, sex is much better as well
-Don't want to waste my 20's

Anonymous said...

37m/no degree/sales job

Have pretty, successful gf, love her but cheat on her enthusiastically. Latest date was with a 19 year old, who performed oral sex on me after our date at the amusement park. I will never ever take a girl out to dinner if im trying to have sex with her. I hit on girls when I go out to do other things, such as food shop or play sports, to minimize opportunity cost. I consider women to be lower than men and treat them as such, within social boundaries. Sex allows me the opportunity to treat them like they deserve, which they seem to enjoy.

RedPillSetMeFree said...

The bottom line is....

women just aren't worth it any more. That's the thing.

Think about what they're asking for, especially if marriage is what they want, and think about what they may or may not give you in return.

Anonymous said...

43(M) and tired, in San Francisco.

Been told by multiple ladies over the years, and recently that I'm "gorgeous", "handsome", "hot", "the body of a 20 something year old", "You're not who I expected!", "You're so intelligent." Apparently I have the goods, yet my interest has waned. Why? I invested my time, my love, and my financial resources into marriage no less than three times and have been burned horribly. I've dated and grown tired of the entitled, flaky, uppity attitudes of women. I've taken my toys (power of commitment) to my sandbox and now only date casually (read: FWB). I now do what I want, when I want, for how long I want, and I don't get nagged incessantly. Life on cruise control and pure contentment is quite amazing.

I've recently read that a woman's capability to love diminishes proportionally with the number of people she's slept with, whereas a man's capability to love diminishes proportionally to the number of times he's been burned in love and relationships. I believe this is fairly accurate for me.

Keep up with the branch swinging, ladies, and see where you end up in life.

Anonymous said...

Lame.

Anonymous said...

I gave up about ten years ago after a series of bad relationships. I had a very hard time dealing with the fact that in majority of these relationships that I was responsible for their happiness. Meaning saying no to the most mundane and trivial requests would result in a "unhappy wife" i.e. Saying no to me joining her at her parents place for sunday dinner. I'd go most of the time but it was an 8/10 statistic that she wasn't happy with. Issues like this repeated itself.

I know not all women are like this, I just became emotionally exhausted with the process of going through it all to find out. And as I got older an my libido started t wane it became less of an issue, and became content with my single life. I won't be going back. I get interest from women from time to time, but I shut it down pretty quick. I'm not interested.

I've got my friends, my hobbies and my dog. That's enough for me.

Michael said...

I will always be a MGTOW. My story has a lot of helpful information: http://www.mgtow-michaelhill.blogspot.com/, http://mgtow68michaelhill.wordpress.com/.

Anonymous said...

Near the end of my 30s (in Ontario)...comfortable due to low-moderate employment income, lots of free time, and passive income from investments that provide me what the average person makes and would allow me to survive anywhere in the world.

I'm pretty much somewhere in between a voluntary and involuntary MGTOW. Fantasized and was very open to finding someone in my pre-teens, teens, 20s, and early/mid 30s, never got the time of day or pervasive bad attitude...people don't understand that sometimes you just reach a point where "you're done", stick a fork in it...and I find myself telling people that more and more lately whenever they comment about finding someone/getting married.

Women shouldn't be too worried, there are enough suckers out there willing to put a ring on it in their late 30s/early 40s to someone in their early/mid 30s.

Anonymous said...

Near the end of my 30s (in Ontario)...comfortable due to low-moderate employment income, lots of free time, and passive income from investments that provide me what the average person makes and would allow me to survive anywhere in the world.

I'm pretty much somewhere in between a voluntary and involuntary MGTOW. Fantasized and was very open to finding someone in my pre-teens, teens, 20s, and early/mid 30s, never got the time of day or pervasive bad attitude...people don't understand that sometimes you just reach a point where "you're done", stick a fork in it...and I find myself telling people that more and more lately whenever they comment about finding someone/getting married.

Women shouldn't be too worried, there are enough suckers out there willing to put a ring on it in their late 30s/early 40s to someone in their early/mid 30s.

Anonymous said...

As a man, realizing that I was no longer looking seemed like such a huge big deal, I internally thought it was the end of the world. I've been completely out of the game now for almost 2 years. Strangely, the opposite has happened. I am happier than ever. I'm not wasting my energy, and my life has been getting better and better. Knowing that I am not going to pursue women is a great, great feeling. I no longer have ulterior motives. I am no longer wishing, hoping and wasting energy that way. To me the whole thing I used to believe in seems like a delusion. What did I ever see in it? Why did I ever think I needed it? I have women friends and we get along fine at whatever is the activity basis of our relationship, but I have no interests beyond friendship in them, or anyone else for that matter. I think most of them can't fathom that I have no interest in them at all sexually or as relationship material. I just don't need it. I am financially secure and have a great network of friends that I see when I want to, but otherwise happy alone. This is enough for me, and seems naturally the best way to live.

Anonymous said...

Well on the other side of the ocean it is not very great either.

In your teenage years you try to meet a nice girl, have some fun and try to experience a relationship. But you can't shuffle the cards you are dealt. You have to make the best of what you have. No money, no career, living with your parents. You get the idea. Even the young teenage women were looking for serious relationships and all of them had this general profile of their "ideal man". Many of my friends suffered the same fate.

Now a few years later, I have a good job, a nice apartment, and am able to enjoy the nice things in life. Suddenly women begin to notice you, like you are a different man. Many of my friends fell for it (and not even the most beautiful women, just plain janes). Making debts and working their asses of, to keep these girls happy and get children with them. I am considering passing on that life, even though my parents would love me to make them grandparents. I just do not think it is quitte worth the effort. Women demand so much that I rather stay happy and get a pet.

Dutch women think you are mentally ill when you live this kind of life. They see you as a loser and pity you, while in the meantime my smile is daily, and their boyfriends or husbands have many years of thunder clouds in front of them. The women think they are very easy to live with.

On the other hand I find it quitte a shame. I mean everybody grows up with idea of becoming happy together, but dating these days is dreadful.

Arthur E. said...

30/M/Single/Childless/College Degree

Status:
- Recently off the market with little-to-none desire of going back.

Reasons:
After almost getting married on a 10 year relationship, got cheated by my fiancee only to be dumped for the other guy later that same year.
Im financially stable, educated, my female friends claim im attractive, im easy going and love traveling.
So what's wrong? dating women is too unrewarding to me.
The amount of effort put is not worth it. Also i learned the hard way that women lie about almost everything, they are not straightforward and have double standards for everything.
Most of the activities women like i actually hate, like dancing, or going to clubs, or listening to pop music, so why would i force myself into such things i actually find boring and annoying only to be friendzoned or just blown off?
I have a better time hanging out with friends, going to a bar where i can actually talk and have a decent drink, or going outside for a walk, and I do this on my own, i dont need a woman with princess complex constantly making my life miserable.
So yeah, men get tired of woman.

Im still single and you'll have to be truly impressive and fucking amazing to change my mind on that.

Anonymous said...

Captain:

I bow to you, sir. Your analysis is so spot on, and you are preaching to the choir. You rock!!!

Anonymous said...

I'm in that boat at 44. After divorcing 6 years ago I went back to school and after that was done 2 years later I optimistically started putting myself out there to meet a woman. I never imagined it would be such a colossal effort with so little return on my time invested. Maybe it's just me, but women seem insanely picky. My criteria is cute, fit and nice to date a woman. The last woman I dated for two months text messaged me that she wouldn't be seeing me anymore with no explanation. I'm pretty burned out now and find myself declining invitations to go out to social gatherings and potentially meet a woman and instead going out with my buddies for food or a movie. I'm not Brad Pitt, but I regularly get told I'm above average looking with a full head of hair and I stay fit (200 pounds 6'2") and look around 35 years old.

This post definitely resonates with me. I guess guys are logical and think of it in terms of time invested vs return. Every other area of my life where I expend time and energy I'm handsomely rewarded. Not so with dating. I also observe that women in my social circle seem to have no problem dating, but go from guy to guy and are usually the ones who terminate their relationships. Dating just seems like a rotten deal for men and that is why I have been gradually withdrawing from the arena and I've got to say once I accepted the single life, I started enjoying myself immensely. I never thought I could go on a trip alone and enjoy it, but I just went to Israel for two weeks alone and had an amazing time. When I was there I thought back to my ex wife and the times she destroyed my enjoyment of a trip and started huge arguments. The single life ain't so bad.

I think that unless women's attitudes start to change and they become more reasonable, they are going to find the pool of men continues to shrink as men wake up and realize that the pursuit of women is too much effort.