Let me tell you a story.
Was at a bar/restaurant last night. Within the group of people I'm at is a mother-son combination and a (frankly) overweight, ugly middle aged woman (henceforth referred to as "the OUMAW").
The mother and the OUMAW are tag teaming this poor boy about what to do when it comes to matters of the ladies and courting when he heads off to college/the real world. And all the advice is absolutely wrong, only guaranteeing he'll be fed to the meat-grinder at a faster rate.
"My husband who does what I tell him and makes the money. You need to become like him."
I speak up.
"Look, don't be nice. Be a jerk. I mean, don't be abusive, but the last thing girls like or want is the sappy overtly sweet nice guy. Be aloof, master back-handed compliments. NEVER be desperate."
"Don't have kids. They cost too much money and they'll take away from your fun with your wife, IF you choose to have one."
"Date LOTS of girls. TONS. That way you'll have some fun initially, but realize just how many poor ones are out there, making sure you'll know when you find a really good one or the "right one."
"Realize you are not inferior to girls. ESPECIALLY at your age. When you get older, you'll realize just how childish they really are reading "People" magazine or watching TMZ or Jersey Shore. Just because they're cute, does not mean they're smarter than you, let alone that you want to date them."
Naturally the mom and the OUMAW we enraged.
"NO! DON'T LISTEN TO HIM!!! LISTEN TO US! WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!"
Their response was interesting because I don't for a second believe they weren't trying to help the boy, they love the kid. Their response seemed visceral, automated. As if they were prompted by instinct, rather than thought. Regardless, merely telling the boy "don't listen to that bad bad man over there" was not enough. The mom and especially the OUMAW had to then "debunk" me and thus the interrogation/attempt to "expose" me began.
"So, what you just live alone all by yourself?"
"AHA! So you're all alone!"
-"No, I have friends and a girlfriend back in Minnesota. And I've made some friends here in South Dakota."
"So, is she some like mail-order bride or something that doesn't have a mind of her own?"
-"No, actually she's an engineer and makes more money than I do."
"And she tolerates your attitude?"
-"Matter of fact, yes, she likes the fact I'm the male and I am willing to draw the line in the sand and stick to my guns. She cooks for me, treats me very nice, and hangs out with me and picks on me. She's also hot and doesn't mind getting dolled up in lingerie."
As the interrogation went on it was becoming apparent to the ladies (AND the boy), that their plan was backfiring on them. I was living proof that everything they said to the boy was wrong and that just because they were older, didn't mean they necessarily wiser in this particular department. Losing the battle they switched tactics (and dare I say, were curious how about this minimalistic/maxi-fun approach to life I had.)
"So you obviously don't have children, do you?"
-"No, I had a vasectomy."
And that was adding fuel to the fire.
"SO YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO HAVE CHILDREN???? WHY DON'T YOU WANT CHILDREN!???"
I then calmly leaned over to the boy, almost as if I was ignoring them, but spoke loud enough so everybody could hear.
"Look, kid, you know how much you cost to raise? $500,000. When it's all said and done, your mom and dad dropped HALF A MILLION DOLLARS ON YOU and that doesn't even include accounting for their time. You don't have to go to college, you don't have to slave away. You can live on the cheap, drive your motorcycle around, hell, buy a boat and a house and eat great food ALL if you don't have children."
Naturally, instead of listening to the words coming out of my mouth and focusing on the point I was trying to make, this merely sent the ladies' emotions into a tizzy. They thought I was saying the kid wasn't worth it. That he was a mistake. Sure enough the responses of "he's worth every penny." "I am so proud of him." "I would do it all over again" blah blah blah blah, came pouring in.
Thankfully you could tell by his eyes he did not only take umbrage to the statement, but was digesting precisely the point I was trying to make.
Emotionally upset, the OUMAW started to tear in even more, but what is nice about this little "philosophy" the Manosphere, or heck, just single or childless people have, is that it's unassailable. There's really no emotion involved in it. I don't get agitated when people tell me they want to have 5 children and grow organic chickens. It's their life. But the OUMAW was obviously insulted I chose to lead my life my way and she was having none of it. Additionally, she wanted to intervene in this poor boy's life, send him on a path SHE deemed the "right" one and dissuade him from my (obviously) "dark side of the force life" of motorcycle, freedom, hiking, and minimal responsibility. Ergo, I had to be "stopped."
With a smug tone she said, "So, do you RENT or do you OWN your apartment?"
Internally I rolled my eyes. She had no idea just how intricately familiar I am with real estate and the economics thereof. She also had no idea how far away I could see this one coming. I played the game.
"Oh, so look at you! You don't even have equity built up in your house. You're so blah blah blah...."
-"I own rental property back in Minnesota."
"Oh." she said. "Well that's good, I own a house too."
I responded (knowing how she bragged about how her husband made all the money),
"Yeah, but my husband didn't pay for my house."
Hooo!!! Hooo!!!!!! The OUMAW did NOT like that. But it's not because I was implying she wasn't an independent woman. It was the fact I highlighted she TRULY WASN'T an independent woman. That and in the eyes of the boy I was just furthering my particular authority in this conversation and debunking hers.
The fireworks were continuing and the boy was paying very close attention. He was noticing how the women were being irrational, emotional and trying to knock me out, whlie I just sat there, very calm, dispassionate, spoke the truth, didn't get riled up, but stuck to my guns. At no time did I say his mom or the OUMAW were wrong or not trying to help him, I merely was presenting the other side of the same coin, a "male" or "older brother" side of life. I wrote down Dalrock, Roissy, The U of Man and a couple other blogs on a napkin, gave it to him and said,
"Look, when I was your age, we didn't have the internet. But what has happened since it's development, is it has allowed millions of men my age and younger and older to compare notes about dating. And what it has enabled us to do is detect trends, patterns, observations, etc. and see what works in the dating world and what doesn't. But most importantly, it makes it so young boys like you DO NOT have to suffer the bullsh#t we did when we were your age. Your mother and the OUMAW obviously do love you, but it's only one side of the story. You need the guy's side."
He went off on his merry way as he had to work the next day, and I was happy I saved another soul an inordinate amount of pain in his future.
Now the moral of the story is not "warm fuzzies" the Captain probably saved the kid a lot of pain. It's that I am still shocked that there are women out there who think it their place to lecture men about the lives they choose to lead. The vehement response I got when I merely said things like;
"I don't want kids."
"I live on the cheap."
"I dated lots of girls."
BLAMO! I'm an evil cad and I must be lectured. And not only must I be lectured, they have every RIGHT to come in and lecture me.
But there's another aspect to it - you forget there are people out there like that.
It's akin to when I worry if the advice we give young men today is relevant anymore. Have relations between young boys and girls changed so that boys don't need this philosophy? I don't want to give him advice that would have worked in 1992, but would only serve to hurt him now. And then I see some news story about girls having pregnancy pacts in high schools or something, and know these poor boys need us more than ever.
And here it is the same thing.
I forget there are people out there who almost unconsciously deem themselves not just your superior, but charter themselves with the right to intervene in your life and tell you what to do as THEY SEE FIT. And while this applies to a wide range of people (abusive husbands, controlling wives, etc. etc.), I am intrigued how common it is when it comes to courting/social-sexual dynamics between men and women, and when the men merely speak truth from the hills -
"We like long legs, big boobs, long hair."
BLAMO! That is somehow "wrong." THat is "bad" (even though it is genetic programming). And that is more than enough of an excuse for women to come in and not just lecture you, but REALLY try to get you to change.
But above all, it provides some amazing hindsight as to just what an uphill battle us older guys had when we were young boys being lectured by the women in our lives.
You're shallow for liking long legs. You're shallow for liking big boobs. You should LOVE a woman for her personality. And be nice and be kind, and buy her flowers, and open doors for her and write her poetry, etc. etc.
How any of us came out of that brainwashing, let alone on our own accord, is amazing. But this brainwashing and indoctrination is still happening. And therefore fellow members of the Manosphere, like Batman, we gotta be there for the boys.
Carry on gentlemen. Carry on.
I've pointed many young men in the direction of the manosphere, particularly toward the game blogs you have mentioned, and it has started to change their lives.
I may have mentioned this before, but I had a woman at my job come asking me for advice on her son's entry to college. Can you guess what ebook (written by a brilliant, yet frustrated economist) I pointed her in the direction of first?
Great post! I hope you directed the boy to the Manosphere so he could continue to get tudoring to counteract the female influences in his life.
Reminds me of a Facebook discussion yesterday about hypergamy, where I mentioned that women leave husbands when they lose their jobs or health, yet Jerry Sandusky's wife stuck like glue to his side. Women went crazy yelling at me but none addressed much less refuted my point.
-- Days of Broken Arrows
What's sad is the only way we came through the brainwashing is because of all the stupid stuff they told women like "Wait", "Get an education and career", "You have all the time in the world" When I was 18-22 I thought about marriage, kids, etc. but my terrible experience with women ruined it. It's sad because it's not completely girls fault, I really was pathetic. Women were sold a bill of goods too but they don't have the time to realize it because their window is much smaller and by the time they do they can either accept they mode horrible choices and listened to the wrong people or bare down and try and kill the competition by convincing younger girls to do all the stupid stuff they did.
Ah the be nice bullshit and when that fails, you need to work harder to improve yourself line. Even though you look around and see the scum of the Earth getting all the sex. Never listen to what women say.
Wow. Quite the exchange. Well played, esp with the refusal to ante up to their emotional challenge.
To do otherwise--to respond emotionally as they were--is to risk exposing yourself to a code red.
I too was struck by their nerve...who were they to pass judgement on how you live your life? And it was amusing to see their stereotypes fizzling.
I still don't understand. Women try to turn boys into the "ideal" man. One who is sensitive and sweet and listens and puts up with their bullsh!t but these same women won't go out with these men. Instead they choose the bad boys or the losers, those who refuse to follow the rules setup by women.
I was raised to be a nice guy and it's ingrained in me, but I've learned to control it somewhat. I don't bend over backwards for women, I don't offer to help lest I offend their independence, but some things I can't change. And if women don't like me because I'm nice or they don't like me because I refuse to bend to their will I don't care. I refuse to be what they want me to be. It's so incredibly liberating to just be yourself and not give a sh!t.
Women act like they provide such a benefit to our lives that when you point out what a drag they are to us financially, emotionally, and psychologically they get enraged and insist on lecturing us. It's like we've somehow discovered that they are in fact aliens pretending to be humans and they must now defend their very existence or be destroyed. But the sad thing is, women truely are alien to our way of thinking. I've weighed the pros and cons of living with them and trying to get along and I've determined it's not in my best interest.
A relationship is all about compromise. To get something you want you have to give up something. When you always give and never get what you want that's not called compromise its called sacrifice. If you're not in a relationship you never have to compromise and you NEVER have to sacrifice. When I listen to my married friends complain about all the things they're not "allowed" to do I think why the hell would you want to put up with that? Which is why I will never go back. I am a free bird at last. I walk around all day with a smile on my face, no matter what I'm doing because I don't have someone to nag me to do it. I'm doing it because I want to do it. Because everything I see is mine, the way I want it to be. No compromise, no sacrifice, all mine. Why would you want it any other way? You'd have to be brainwashed or an idiot, which is exactly how women want it. So you don't know what you are missing. But once you know you can't put that cat back in the bag. I can see through your alien disguise. I'm not falling for it anymore. I'm free.
Last night my fiancee asked me to talk to her 18 year old son, who is getting serious with a girl.
The message I had for him was that there's three simple things to do to avoid the poverty trap, which I first read in a Thomas Sowell column, IIRC.
Finish high school, get married and have kids (after 20 yrs of age), and in that order precisely. The figure I found was that in the U.S., of those that did these three things in the proper order, 8% lived in poverty (including temporary poverty, i.e. dad's between jobs). Of those that did not do those things, or in the proper order, 79% were living in poverty.
"You should LOVE a woman for her personality"
Yeah, actually you should. And you should definitely pay attention to the fact that women who prattle on and on about great personalities actually have _SUCKTASTIC_ personalities. Like anything else, if you have to _push_ it on people, it can't really be all that great.
Girls who are hot are not really especially hard to come by. It's girls a sane man can stand to actually spend time with that are rare.
Very generous to assume the Mom's intention was only trying to help the boy, but maybe an underlying motive is GRANDCHILDREN. What Mom doesn't want grandchildren?
A woman's personality matters in that she has sanity, being in touch with reality, and self control, because these are the traits that she must have to be a good mother and faithful wife. Being "witty" is extremely over rated and usually said by guys who are in dating markets where quality women are rare - I used to be one of them.
I remember the saying:
Hot, Smart, Sane - please pick 2.
With wisdom, I realize that I would not miss "smart" at all.
Great post, its needed these days for young boys.
It is interesting to note their reaction to your vasectomy.
Why is it perfectly OK for women to terminate a pregnancy for their conveneince (not right time, wrong man, want to have more money in bank/larger house/big vacation first, etc...) and they are willing to stage a march in DC demanding that right and priveledge. But, when you say you do not want kids for your conveneince, somehow, that is an unforgivable sin.
Liberals. So predictable.
Yes you should love a woman for her personality. In the long run, that will be infinitley more important then long legs, and big boobs.
Loving a woman has NOTHING to do with being attracted to a woman.
And, attraction (almost) always to come first. To my knowledge, and there may be examples disputing this out there, no guy has ever walked up to an unattractive girl/woman/female in a bar or at a party and said "Wow, you must have a really great personality, and I bet you treat your family really well. Let's get out of here and go someplace quiet were we can be alone."
Matt is exactly right. There is no reason more important than personality. My wife was pretty and smart and totally screwed up in the head. Most women are. If you find one who's not and she's even reasonably cute keep her! Choose the wrong one and you'll regret it. Some mistakes last a long time.
Instructive and entertaining. It is, of course, all about control. It's instinctive that women want control because they don't want the man to stray too far from the mouth of the cave. It's a security thing... Tie him up with kids and guilt and he provides sustenance, shelter, security.
It's easily overcome of course once a man knows what game is afoot, but it can take a while to figure it out; some never get it. So, good on the Captain for pointing the kid in the right direction.
She ain't pretty, she just looks that way:
I have no problem with brainwashing men. If too many guys take the red pill, civilization collapses. The problem is, we stopped brainwashing women, so civilization is collapsing anyway.
Men want to be thugs. Women want to mate with thugs. Unless BOTH sexes check their instincts at the door, the whole society is doomed.
The vast majority of women play for 'team woman' and will groom their sons for monogamous slavery. When women have had ridden the cock carousel and have decided to retire from their slut lifestyle, they expect to pickup one of these well conditioned slaves/atm/sperm bank/security drone/beast of burden.
When men decide otherwise, team women get all huff and puff that you've broken their sexual and evolutionary strategy and cycle.
Huh. My parents took one look at modern society and my personal observations of it, and unanimously agreed that I should MGTOW for roughly the next decade. (i.e. basically as my mother put it "girls these days are more trouble than they're worth. If someone tries to insult you with some bullshit about how your not getting laid indicates that you're gay, just tell them you're actually a raging misogynist who watched his childhood friends grow up to become sluts.")
Can't say it's the perfect advice (it's born of their complete sense of culture shock after moving to North America from a different society), but I feel somewhat grateful that at least I've never been pressured to complicate my life or had my head crammed with unhelpful bullshit as shown in the above article. Left unspoken is the fact that I do have the ultimate responsibility of proving my parents wrong and learning to navigate this broken society better than they ever could... otherwise why would they have bothered raising me?
This is all true, but it really depends on the person. This advice can be really misunderstood and misused by people, and end up messing up lives. There can be morons in all categories of people, alpha, beta, whatever. Using your brain and choosing how to behave is key in any kind of mentality. Especially when it's not your own and you're just following advice from random people you meet in bars/restaurants. If you haven't come to those conclusions yourself through life experience, and you're kind of dumb too, it will probably cause more harm than the opposite. Basically all I'm saying is it's not that clear-cut, and to be able to appreciate "the other side of the same coin" you need to already know the other, and be able to choose behaviors from both according to the situation presented BY YOURSELF, and not because a blog said so. As with everything in life, it's not what you use, is who and how they use it.
Anyway, good post. And nice how even though you don't want to have children you act like a father figure to young guys :)
Bravo, Cap'n! Got pumped just reading that story.
Hi, I'm 17 years old too, so I mirrored myself with that guy you saved.
It is amazing how a lot of people, not only woman, think they know how life works.
It is amazing, that we supposedly have freedom of speed and still this kind of censure happens, and it is more shocking that it comes from our own people.
Personally, I found out about the manosphere when I got broken hearted by a girl, I searched and searched advice on how to get her, until one sunny day I found roosh's blog. Really, red pill thinking has the power to break havoc on the status quo, it is even funny haha, but the sad truth is that everything becomes corrupted after a while of being in the wild.
Anyway, thanks for writing this post, it makes you think that not all the people are brainless maniacs, still some people deserve to be called persons.
Another way to absolutely detonate people in this kind of discussion is to bring up the possibility of radical life extension (i.e. SENS, stem-cell regeneration, etc.) and how such advances over the next 20-30 years will obsolete the conventional life cycle.
I've advised my son along your route. He's having a blast-college, Navy, girl "friend" in a port. Us women want a man to take charge. It's biblical, too. Only thing I really stressed is don't leave little "sons" around for you to find out about later.
I wish someone had done what you did for me 5 years ago when I was 17. I was raised by two lesbians and I had no idea how to attract women until I began studying game 2 years ago.
@ Paul: Beware the definition of poverty. The Captain lives in poverty, according to gov statistics, and so do many other MGTOW types. Poverty is a mindset. A minimalist life, full of free time, without debt or obligation to hold you back is the best thing a man can have, and who cares how poor you are by conventional standards.
Sandusky's wife stayed with him because she is not a feminist.
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