Susan Walsh has an interesting piece up at her little cabin in the Hookuposphere. It highlights an article by Katie Bolick about how single women, who are now in their 30's and 40's, are embracing their singlehood, and coming to grips they may never marry, striking out on going their own way.
Read it first, before continuing on.
You read it yet?
OK, here we go.
I like the article and very much agree with everything that's been said because it is essentially "WGTOW." Women of a certain age are starting to realize their perceptions and strategies were not quite accurate or effective when it came to choosing an appropriate suitor, and now that they are no longer the "hot little thing" they were when Milli Vanilli was popular, they are forced to accept reality and abide by it. It's a healthy decision to realize you are on this planet this one time and you better make the best of it, and so to see a movement akin to MGTOW with women, I can and do tip my hat to them.
There's just a couple problems with the whole premise, and permit me to be blunt (not that you thought I was going to be anything but).
One, I don't believe it. Sorry, just don't. Normally I cite empirical data or statistics, but I have none. All I have is the totality of personal and anecdotal experience I've accumulated over the years to realize that women, especially in their 30's and 40's, AND ESPECIALLY IF THEY DON'T HAVE KIDS, become MORE desperate. Yes they'll tell themselves 30 is the new 20. And yes, they'll cite people like "Meg Ryan" or "Jennifer Aniston" who are still "hot" in their 40's. And yes, they'll read US or People magazine and watch reruns of "Tank Girl." But in the end, I don't believe women, like men in the MGTOW movement, believe it for one second. I believe it is their rationalization hamsters merely plagiarizing the MGTOW movement.
Two, while the two are analogous (MGTOW and WGTOW), the analogy ends in the origins of both movements. The origins of MGTOW hearkens back to when these men were in their early teens. Nerd or jock. Player or uber-beta. Virgin or porn star. All men have had to suffer the games, psychoses, drama, and just plain BS associated with dating and courting women/girls since puberty. Some men, with a low threshold for psychological pain or abuse (or as I like to call it "self-respect"), just give up. They make a conscious economic decision weighing the costs and benefits of continuing to pursue the opposite sex and came to the decision not to chase any more. To hop on their motorcycles, get the snippity snip, minimize their expenses and head out into the vast plains of life and maximize the time they have on this planet for their own benefit before they died.
This "process" or "epiphany" is different from the origins of WGTOW or how women decide going their own way is the best option. Most men go their own way in their prime. It's a conscious choice. It wasn't forced upon them. They purposely and consciously chose to quit because it was the wisest choice. Whereas with WGTOW, it's a situation that seems forced upon them. They wake up one day, at the age of 37, realize the past 7 years was not as fruitful as it was from 1990-1997 and are faced with the reality nobody cares about Winona Ryder anymore. They only care about Megan Fox. They never analyzed or assessed the ROI of their efforts on attracting a male. They never looked back and said, "Gee, I'm going to die here in a short 40 years, I better quit pissing away my time at the bars and go hiking in Glacier National Park." They just took the time to finally turn around and see men stopped chasing them back in Bush's first administration.
They then claim, "Oh yeah, me too! Fish-bicycle! I'm going my own way!" Sadly, because it's their only option. This, does not a deeply thoughtful (or intellectually honest) epiphany make.
Three, which is related to two, is an issue of human psychology. Specifically, hard wiring.
I truly believe when a man comes to the decision to go his own way, the romantic/social/dating/whatever environment was so hostile it overrode his hard-wired programming to chase women. This is NOT a light statement. Because if your external environment was so hostile, to the point it overrides your genetic programming, that's a pretty hostile environment. I also contend the environment is so hostile, it literally damages your hard-wiring, or perhaps your brain sabotages it on purpose so that you can continue on with a reasonably normal and enjoyable life before you die. You girls perhaps have ran into the "dark, but quiet" man who you theorize was hurt by some woman in the past and you wish to show him there's reason to live and love once again? Yeah, that's the guy I'm talking about.
Sadly, it's already too late. His wiring has been irreparably damaged. He's no longer capable of love or romance, he's in a sense a fully functional automoton, capable of all human functions bar romance and love. Try as you might, he can't be put back together. He is "damaged goods." It's a battery that is dead and just won't turn over. In short, it wasn't a choice for him. His heart or mentality was permanently "broken" and shan't ever be put back together again.
But this cannot be said for the WGTOW movement. I'm sure womens' hearts have been "broken" and this isn't to say you haven't fallen in love before, blah blah blah. But you have not been driven to the brink where your genetic programming and hard-wiring is damaged or impaired. You haven't been driven to the point where you actually are forced to think of your mortality and how you've been living your life and deciding it is genuinely better to go at it on your own and pack it in before you die, completely taken men out of the picture.
Well, truthfully (and here we go with that blunt stuff again), ON THE WHOLE (admitting there are exceptions) women have had it pretty good in this country when it comes to quality and caliber of men. They were just WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too picky (or perhaps preoccupied with playing little funny torturous mind games) when it came to men. I know and acknowledge there are women who have been genuinely abused.
But I'm not talking about them.
I'm talking about the other 98.5% of women in American who watched too much 90210, Oprah or what have you and whose expectations were outlandishly high.
These girls/women have not gone through anywhere NEAR the psychological torture necessary to irreparably damage their hard-wiring to just POOF, give up on men and GENUINELY go their own way.
Four, it's an issue of timing. Given a limitless time horizon, yes, I 100% accept and agree that women would go their own way. But their environment has not been that hostile LONG ENOUGH to essentially break their spirit and their hard-wiring. Men have been at this since they were essentially 13 or 14. You add 20 years of that kind of hostile environment of mind games, being stood up, drama, suicide threats, sh!t tests, flightiness, flakiness, divorce, blah blah blah, and he'll burn out. So by the time he's in his 30's, he's done, he's impaired, he's on his motorcycle and you just see a tailpipe obscured by a puff of exhaust.
Women don't start that training or suffer anything approaching that kind of a hostile environment until they're maybe 30 or 35. And given how society and media constantly artificially pump up their egos, the true learning can be delayed until they're 40 (because, as you know, Oprah said 40 is the new 30. And there's this cougar fad. And Katie Couric is on the news. And did you see Aston Kutchner! He's married to Demi Moore...oops...wait ;).
So if I'm to believe this, Katie Bolick and other 30 something women, in a mere short 2-4 years, have suffered enough of a hostile courting environment that it destroyed their genetic programming and hard-wiring?
Sorry, I don't buy it dear. It takes A LOT of pain, agony, suffering and a relentless, never ending massive assault of nuclear-powered psychological BS to destroy your hard-wiring. Men, frankly, have never launched such a long, vicious, vile or sustained assault on women in this country, leading me to once again believe it is the plagiarizing rationalization hamster.
Of course, there is a silver lining to all this. And that is equilibrium.
As an economist I am a big believer in equilibrium. It is a constant and natural state in all aspects of physics, economics and humanity. It cannot be denied or defied. It is a fact. Because, well, if any system (the universe, the economy, humanity, etc) were NOT to be in equilibrium, it would blow up or destroy itself (which in itself is achieving equilibrium - ahhhhh!). But my deep philosophical hookey pookey aside, the point is you WILL most definitely get to suffer enough to the point your hard wiring is impaired. You will most definitely get to earn your stripes and the right to claim GENUINE WGTOW status. Because, banter about it all you want, a large enough population of the single men out there, ESPECIALLY in their 30's-50's have sooooo been put through the ringer, you'll never have the chance you did to potentially woo them into matrimony back when they were 20 and reasonably functional, healthy and capable in terms of romance and love. Your options are now limited to damaged goods. You have no choice now.
So it's not like you won't be going your own way. Don't worry, another 15-20 years wandering in the harsh desert you've essentially created for yourselves and you'll rank right up there with the rest of us. And besides, it's guaranteed. You'll have the honor of turning highly functional automotons like us when you're 55! You will become 100$ USDA certified WGOTW's.
All I ask is you please don't fake it in the meantime.
You want to see some stupid, clueless women who can't understand why the men aren't falling all over themselves to help them? Watch "Survivor - One World" (the new season just started last night.) The only "guy" (and I use that term loosely!) who is preferring their company over that of his fellow men is gay.
They aren't real "WGTOW" because, should their rich prince charming turn up, they would fall into his arms in a heartbeat.
You're right about MGTOW being programmed in a way. Even the sweetest and prettiest girl will create an automated response of "its a trap, get out !!!". These women are nowhere near this situation.
spot on. i have been saying since long time that if women experimented the level of rejection and BS a man routinely has to experience, they would committ suicide after a week.
Capn, I'm a bit disappointed that given your background you didn't point out the biggest canard in the whole steroids for hamsters WGTOW fantasy.
Namely the simple fact that the entire ability of almost every woman to GTOW is subsidized by men. Parse those stats that Susan uses to show just how strong and independent are, their higher education levels and salaries.
Yes, massive preferences in not only entry into schools, but having your every whim be turned into a major, massive preferences in hiring and in getting promoted in both the public and private sectors, being the major recipient of just about every government spending program, or even private-sector benefits packages, and there are a legion of other factors.
Yes, all of society has been turned into your cheering squad for any decision you might make, and your own little safety net to insulate you from any consequence, financial or perceptual.
Let's all bow down to today's strong and independent woman, but just ignore the guys toiling away in indentured servitude that make this possible for the vast majority of them.
Somewhat hyperbolic? Perhaps, but not by much, if at all.
It's kind of the Indiana Jones, "It's not the years, it's the mileage."
I guess a more direct question is:
How many men have threatened to commit suicide on you, stand you up, play mind games, cheat on you, throw a temper tantrum, flake out, not return your calls, string you along for sex, make ultimata, etc. etc.
When the number approaches, I'd say, 200, then you'll start to notice your wiring fraying out and you can join us.
I have a simpler theory. You could reverse the vasectomy, get married, and have kids, if you so desired. A woman over 40 cannot. It's easy to "go your own way" when you still have the option of going back.
Good point, I often never consider or overlook the desire for women to have children on account children never enter my mind.
How are you enjoying poisoned fruit of the poisoned tree of feminism, beeyotches?
That qualifies I'd say. But not to sound like my mom or the NAWALT gang, you can't find ANY guys out there? With your views being generally pro-male, should be one or two out there.
Women aren't going their own way because they want to; they're doing so because they HAVE NO CHOICE! Between MGTOW and meeting their expiration dates, women simply have no choice. They're simply trying to put the best spin on this, saying that they don't need and/or want men anyway; can you say sour grapes?
Well is your face mutilated or something? Otherwise, bar having three noses or missing an ear, work out, eat right and get sexy.
I will sympathize with you though, if you're alpha and in America, you have a TON of pansified men to deal with.
What he said Aynesly. A good attitude and building up a fit bod is a +3-+4 on the looks/sexy scale as guys view it. Can't say why that is, it just is. Few girls are un-cute when they're fit and genuinely like guys.
Great article, Captain, thanks for that nifty quadruple link. It is of course quite unavoidable, and at least a little painful, to see right through the celebratory tone. It is a last hurrah to put a good face on options running out. Nearly all the women highlighted in these articles are coming up on 40, at the youngest. I suspect Kate Bolick will snag some handsome guy in the end, though she probably won't get the family she hoped for. But most of the women lining up to follow her are not likely to realize her good fortune. Their lives are only half over, but their romantic lives are done.
I agree with Marky Mark - there are a lot of sour grapes here. Calling married couples greedy, pitying married couples because they lack freedom - this too is transparent and pitiable. Naturally, Boston, with the highest concentration of hamster wheels per capita, is a hotbed of this sentiment.
I'll venture to say that WGTOW can't possibly compare to MGTOW because the sexual wiring is so different. Involuntary celibacy is just not going to be as big a deal to women. I like sex as much as any woman, and I never in my life would have jumped off a bridge if I couldn't get it. These women are not coming to grips with a painful and torturous reality that is physiological. It is psychological, and as such may be addressed at least to some degree by creating "friend families," etc.
It's going to get a lot worse for women in the coming generation. It will get so bad that more and more women will start blaming feminism, and will claim they've been lied to, just as men do now. The pendulum always swings back to equilibrium, but the trip back is going to be ugly for women. I trust that is some small compensation for men.
He is "damaged goods." It's a battery that is dead and just won't turn over. In short, it wasn't a choice for him. His heart or mentality was permanently "broken" and shan't ever be put back together again.
So greatly put together. i am in the early stages of MGTOW, this is the exact reason, i am heart broken and don't feel the desire to chase a woman,
I am moving ahead in my life on my own. I am so glad that I've found Mens' movement online. Thank you all.
Here is a very informed blog comment covering what you are writing about. Scroll down to the atfldgr comment.
"after darwin… dynasty was the game.. darwin and the selfish gene… their selfish genes are making sure your less selfish genes wont produce… they dont care which poison you take, as long as you take one of them…
this way, the best competition is never born… "
I know a guy who had the MGTOW moment in his mid 30s.... almost. After years of rejection, betrayal, and abuse, and falling in love unrequitedly and/or being let on once too often, in his mid 30s he had what he describes as his "final heartbreak".
He says -- summarizing -- "I finally met my one true soulmate, the one I was created for. I'd been in love before, but NEVER before was I so SURE of the rightness of it. And when she dumped me, I DIED. I died inside, permanently. I knew I'd never fall in love again -- the circuits are gone, burned out forever."
Here's the problem. He still desperately needed sex. And as a religious fellow, he need to be married to do that. And he also wanted kids. (I can relate on all 3 points). But his heart, his oldfashioned romantic self, was burned out of him. How can he marry?
Simply put, he found a good, compatible woman, one who loved him, and who deserved all his affection and money and house. He married her, and made it work. He knows how to behave like a man in the throes of true love, and he does it. And she is happy, and he is happy, and they have happy kids, and all seems well.
Of course, she can never know his heart is dead. But she never will. She never needs to. He will treat her like gold the rest of his life, because... wait for it... she was nice to him.
Too bad other women killed his heart first. Otherwise he might enjoy his marriage a lot more. But he enjoys the sex, loves his kids, and does whatever he can to make her happy and *feel* loved in return.
That's the best he can do. He's damaged goods.
Here's the REALLY crazy part. Up to the time that his "soulmate" burned him, he was the guy that was constantly rejected, could very rarely get a date, etc. AFTER his heart had died inside, it was like a bag was taken off of his head -- women started falling all over themselves wanting to date him! Crazy. It's as if his damaged state made him 100x more attractive.
AFTER his heart had died inside, it was like a bag was taken off of his head -- women started falling all over themselves wanting to date him! Crazy. It's as if his damaged state made him 100x more attractive.
Yeah, because women are like children: they want what they cannot have; once they get it, they no longer want it...
Probably the biggest difference between WGTOWs* and MGTOWs is that WGTOWs likely feel regret for passing on good (though not perfect, not like what she "deserved") men who were sincerely interested in them, but just didn't quite "do it" for them. Sure, they had their good points, but they werent tall enough, or rich enough, or handsome enough. Or maybe they only met 84 of the 138 items on their bullet point checklists.
Now, with their "sell by" dates expired, they look around and see other women happily married to guys just like the ones they used to give the "you're a great guy and i know there's someone special for you out there but we're just not right for each other" speeches to (before going out and chasing the "alpha" men that all the other girls were chasing too). So yeah, there's probably a lot of regret there that WGTOWs are covering up with their rationalizations.
For most MGTOWs though, it's highly unlikely that they passed on marriage-worthy women to chase the cheerleaders. More likely, they just settled for what they could get, only to realize that they were better off without it.
* -- spare us the NAWGTOWALTs please. The existence of exceptions does not negate the rule.
Yes and yes. Oh, yeah, and yes.
I wound up going my own way at 27,and then tried getting back into the dating scene around mid-30's. It was good I did both...because the first going my own way was my choice, the second going my own way is aging out of the pool. It has been very interesting integrating both experiences, and very eye-opening. IN fact, it really sucks at times to look inside and NOT see the pretty and good person you thought you were, but a mix of old grime and meanness mixed with the good.
I think I may be one of your exceptions...it may be better for me to be by myself. Turns out I have Asperger's, so my wiring is different from many other women.
I enjoy men, their humor, their drive, their logic over feelings, I just am not good wife material...I like being alone too much. Solitude is seductive.
I agree women have a reckoning coming. I dont think they will be able to handle it. I lucked out. I stumbled onto Roosh, kept reading, led to dalrock, led to others...led here. When I would sting with hurt or anger, I would stop reading and start thinking. Truth hurts, If I am hurting, perhaps, possibly just maybe...I am hearing truth?
Feelings can be foreign territory for me, so eventually I shrug the few I do feel off and get on with thinking....I am better off, and will try to help younger girls understand these trade-offs and hamsters, and clue them in. I dont think most females will be able to work through the negative feelings and emotions that introspection brings out, and will not make it through to the end but will lash out like a shrill army.
Oh and I havent ordered your book yet, but will next paycheck. I am already in school, happily working on a STEM degree, but I like being able to show support. Perhaps I shall leave it on campus? Thanks for all you do, and those in manosphere.
Though I would not be that tough on yourself. Reading and realizing the truth is not what you believed is a painful process. It wasn't like Neo in The Matrix was enjoying himself when he was finallly woken up and realized he was in a battery matrix.
The good news is that now you have your eyes open, you'll probably stand a better shot at finding a good guy in that you're accounting for that whole other side of the formula that was never consdiered before:
I've been going my own way since about age 15, racked up 200 psychic injuries on the litmus test exceptionally fast due to my personality type
a woman could potentially go her own way I suppose, except that a woman without a man to care for is a pretty worthless thing. men can get by just fine without women, but women need men in their life for purpose and guidance. particularly shameful is a woman who has hit the wall after ejecting good men from her life, and then claiming that she is just going her own way all of a sudden. the stench of lies is thick around the female gender
Thanks. It can be hard, figuring this out...but it will mean a better life in the long run.
I don't think being forced out of the "game" actually breaks a man. He simply learns that being romantic and loving simply don't yield any results with most women. But when he finds a woman who loves him, it's easy to be romantic and loving again. Men just learn to expend the effort judiciously instead of wastefully.
A) I'm a 25 years old.
B) I'm male.
C) I'm still a virgin.
D) My virginity is not by choice.
E) I was bullied almost non-stop by my peer group for pretty much all 5 years of elementary school.
F) The girls were the primary instigators in getting me beat up.
G) One toyed with me by "going out" with me for a little over a week, only to dump me and spread rumors I was gay.
H) With the scarring of elementary school, I maintained an extreme distrust of my peer-group, to the point of having only a couple friends.
I) I thank The Creator of the Universe for computers at that time.
J) Through middle and high school, que string of likes, ask outs, rejections.
K) The last girl in HS I had strong feelings for lied, only to have it thrown back in my face later.
L) Thought it would be much better in college.
M) It wasn't any better in college, and managed to have two separate complaints lodged at me for even (non-creepily) expressing an interest in going out.
N) Finished college, still a virgin.
O) Last girl I tried asking out was a friend for a couple years. Fell into love, unlike previous attempts this one never ditched me after rejecting me.
P) Suffered 4-5 more rejections in 2 years with this last one, then finally had to cut her off as a friend to maintain my sanity and self image.
I am (I think) a great guy, not exactly fit, not exactly socially competent, don't make much money for the time being, but I'm brilliant as hell (I can rip apart most 'systems' and gain understanding. 'Systems analyst' (though not strictly computers/electronics)). I hate HypnoVision with a passion, and choose to read strictly non-fiction content, specifically physics and other science.
I know anecdotes don't mean a whole lot of shit in the grand scheme of things, but every indicator points to women being uninterested in my person.
My experiences had forced me to evaluate the situation, and after much research over the years, thanks to you, Roissy, /r/MR, Niceguys.com, and MGTOW, I have concluded that due to the nature of women, the legal environment, and the burnout of being psychologically ripped apart at every turn (essentially burning myself one too many times touching the stove burner), that the whole mass of them can up and go fuck themselves.
I admit I'm not at my best, but I have great potential. There is a fair chance I'll be monied by the time I'm 40, and I've already vowed that if I cross the $100,000/yr marker (counted as today's spending potential as inflation isn't going anywhere), I'll never touch a woman that I'm not paying to be there (maid, cook, prostitute).
At that point, I would suspect that it is the resources I control, and not me, that brought them in, and that utterly disgusts me beyond belief.
Whether I'll have children will depend on my wealth. If I remain middle or poor class then I won't, but if I can earn enough to work no more than 20 Hrs/wk and raise and teach my kid(s), I'll have them by Indian surrogate. Because of the legal environment, my pains, and the nature of women, I will not satisfy one with a comfortable lifestyle as a "Mom," and I will not risk my kids being stolen from me via divorce/custody.
When I'm sitting at that VIP table in that high price bar/club, puffin' a tobacco pipe with the dudes, rollin' in cash, and I tell you (interested woman) to fuck off, just remember what your sisters and predecessors did to people like me. You can go cry in your cat water dishes as you die a crazy cat lady. I have lost sympathy, and there is no reward for the work it would take to reverse this and the risks I would undergo. You did it to yourselves.
-Pissed off nerd.
ADDENDUM: Be thankful that I'm not as psychotic as the nerds that run bioweapons labs, or like Bill Gates, who have the money and technology to work toward killing you slowly, and are.
I'm sure your predecessors fucked them up too.
@Like a G-6:
Women hate men who tell the truth about women: because it ruins their chances to hold the moral high ground and to express outrage to end debate.
Making sure your assets are secure and that you have proof against allegations are also something else to think about: many a man gets victimised when he puts himself in a shady situation.
Dating women who have been "around the block" also means replacing her first love, so as considerate men we must stay away from them. Since they are likely not able to honour their marriage vows, and we cannot ask of them more than they can deliver.
"As an economist I am a big believer in equilibrium. It is a constant and natural state in all aspects of physics, economics and humanity. It cannot be denied or defied. It is a fact."
Of course, as an economist, you'd have to believe in equilibrium. Otherwise, the equations in the "soft science" would fall apart. Reality is that the world is continuously changing. Newton 3 laws only works in an idealized situation (ie, frictionless. Throw in friction or a 3rd body and it falls apart.). And the universe in expanding, not in a stable state. Proven by Henri Poincare, in 1887.
And ya, waiting for your point.
I think Anon (9:07) is trying to show how 'smart' he is...
But, yes, I have been saying much the same thing for the last 15-20 years...there is a reckoning coming and it won't be pretty. Some men (and only a few women) are beginning to see this.
Expect more shaming language from both women and traditional men (entirely clueless about female nature) and more talk about the 'oppressive patriarchy' b.s. before reality finally hits.
I just want to say that there have been women withdrawing themselves from society since at least the 1960's. Ever heard of a lesbian commune? Or seperatist feminism for that matter? Some of them still exist, and I doubt that they would have wanted to "imitate" men for 40+ years just to prove a point.
It's not really just that women want to copy off men. Of course, some of them do, but people withdrawing themselves from society due to percieved oppressions has been a thing since forever, and is not based on gender. Women, however, seem to prefer communities to seperate themselves from. Men wish to remain independent.
I am guessing that the only reason we now hear of WGTOW is because men got their first with MGTOW - but I suppose we had better apply some affirmative action so as not o set the entry bar too high.
Interesting article with a lot of truths.
I am a 43-year old male who has gone solo since age 31. I was simply fed up with all the games, BS, etc. from women over the years, so one day I just said "screw it", and have not gone back since.
I believe that women in their late 30s into their 40s did not chose to be single, but it was forced upon them. And I do believe that the closer a woman pushes 40, the more desperate they become. I am living proof. Last year I went to two weddings and ran into two women I have known since my teens. I knew them, but I really did not know them very well. I would encounter them every few years at a wedding or some other event. Well, in these most recent encounters, they were still single and both of them were more friendly to me than they ever were in the past and commented that "we should get together" or "a shame we do not see each other more often" and other hints.
I should have asked them why they were still single, but to be honest, I really did not care.
Ladies, if you are pushing 40 or mid 40s, and you are wondering why you never met a good man, I want to tell you something...
chances are you did meet a "nice guy" back in your 20s or 30s who treated you with respect and in turn you took him for granted and/or treated him like crap.
Fell in love.
Screwed back hard.
Shed dead weight.
No longer a fool.
Life's lessons suck.
Better person today.
You are helping me.
Tomorrow looks good.
I agree with some of what you have to say but you underestimate female sexual power. a fat ugly 50 year old woman has more sexual options than a man half her age.
Women have all the power when it comes to sex and relationships. An average 40 year old woman has many many options and no reason to "ghow".
The problem with women is having bastard kids. Any guy who has options does not want to be with a woman who has the children of another man. Many 40 year old single mothers don't seem to understand why tall handsome guys with money who are their own age dont want them.
To sum it all up, women have all the power, no reason to go their own way, all their complaints are groundless.
I guess you could call me a WGHOW, but that doesn't really describe me as a person.
I'm a 26 yr old woman who has put herself through college, owns her car, has a nice apartment, pays all her loans/bills and works 50+ hrs a week to do so.
Since 8th grade, I've only had male friends...and for the last 5 yrs have had a great "friends with benefits" relationship with an awesome guy. My friends rely on me, I rely on them. They buy the movie tickets, I buy the dinner. They need some extra cash or help moving, I provide it...and they do the same for me (except for the cash part, lol).
I have never looked at a man and thought about what he could do for me. That is not how the world works...if you want a relationship with someone, it needs to be 50-50. If not, well, it is a relationship built on VERY shaky ground.
Be that as it may, I do not want a deeper commitment. I have never had a strange desire for a man to "call my own", nor have I ever craved children of my own. I enjoy my privacy, my ability to buy my own things, the fact that I come and go as I please and the spectacular guilt-free sex my "friend" and I have every week.
Many people, men and women alike, have told me that this is "a phase". That one day my love of privacy will become loneliness, that one day I'll suddenly NEED to become pregnant, that I will grow bored with sex and simply want a nice house paid for by my necessary husband. Not going to happen! I've given these things much thought, and even at the age of 15, had no desire to lose my freedom...nor take away any man's. To work for oneself, to take pride in your accomplishments, to be self reliant- These are goals that everyone should have, and that I own in abundance. Besides, the very idea of being pregnant creeps me out big time, and has since I was much younger.
I'm sure my life could be easier if I allowed myself to be treated like a woman. However, my personality is the exact opposite of that...and besides, I much prefer being treated as an equal instead of some sort of princess. So, I am not "GMOW" to spite anyone, because it's "in", to prove I don't need "a man" or because I can't get laid. It isn't even because I was abused as a child, although that did happen.
I simply believe that with dedication to my work and loyalty to my friends, I can truly be happy as well as free. And guess what? It has worked out damn good so far!
Mid 50s but pass for mid-40s. A Disgruntled Old Coot I am and adopted the general MGTOW ideas back in the early 1980s.
Never spawned so avoided that often life destroying affair.
As what I label the War Against Males became further entrenched in USA society I too ever-increasing measures to protect myself from that society and especially the females within.
Shun the dames, ban the broads from my shanty.
If I DO converse with a female (and I do often) it is ONLY on my terms. I choose the location to ensure there are always others nearby so that a false accusation can not be made against me.
I must admit that there is some satisfaction gained when I ignore the obvious "come on's" females use to show their interest, their desires, perhaps even blatant lust.
Of course... when is that lust in existence due to perceived wealth I possess or the security of having "a man around the house."?
I am nice, kind, pleasant and rather Boy Scout-like in my ignoring the often obvious "hints" to entangle myself with the females coming on to me.
But, shun them I do and the responses range from humorous to scary!!!
Some females become agitated that I had the NERVE to not desire them, to not embrace them... to not fulfill THEIR wants, needs and desires!!!
Yeah, typical USA females.
Most recently, a cute 23-year-old at a coffee shop has made her interest obvious.
Mature for her years and educated she is a nice young lady and oozing sexiness and fertility!!! Gulp.
Does the lass have Daddy issues? Does she have a desire for a mature Old Coot? Is her apparent longing for a guy old enough to be her father based on security by economics (that I do not possess)?
Anyway, we have conversed and I ignored the touches, the facial gestures, the foot caressing my lower leg.
Hey!!! It's FUN!!! and in a public place so I am safe.
Her DNA will never be found in my vehicle or shanty...no stray hair or skin cells shed so some anti-male pro-female cop, detective, prosecutor and judge to imprison me and the devious female to destroy economically via the following civil suit.
And the War Against Males continues along with my personal battles based upon the shunning of what seems to be a growing number of desperate and often demented and/or devious dames.
His wiring has been irreparably damaged. He's no longer capable of love or romance, he's in a sense a fully functional automoton, capable of all human functions bar romance and love.
Just like a snake or like phoenix.
Sometimes you have to get rid of your old skin, the holes that women put into it, the scars and all the other crap sticking to it ... to grow.
There is a better version of me now and it is not available to women .. forever.
Strangely .. now that i turned my heart and soul into an ice cube and accept no BS from females anymore, not in private, not at work nor in any other situation.
They dig me.
Too late :)
Fairytales like Cinderella teach girls that charm and good looks make them relationship predators. They cling to this notion until their early 40s biological clock time.
This is the reason most men don't fight the pain and stress of relationships. Men's neural wiring is easier to break.
I'm a 44-year-old woman who has never experienced - or really understood, for that matter - the desire to have children.
As for marriage, I've never felt the strong disinclination toward it that I feel toward having children, but it's never been on my to-do list, either. I don't pity married people, nor do I envy them.
I've been with my sweety for almost eight years now. He's 38, so a little bit younger than me, but he doesn't want children either and shares my neutral attitude toward marriage. We don't live together and never have, but he stays at my place every weekend.
Why fix what ain't broke? I dunno, maybe we'll get married someday when we're both in our 50s or 60s. That seems like a good age for it. Buy a place together and live off the rental income from our paid-off homes and occasional contract work.
But what's the rush. Neither of us is "broken" or "damaged" by past relationships that didn't work out.
It strikes me that there is some overwrought drama going on here. Maybe some of that stems from unmet expectations, and maybe I just never had those expectations to begin with.
I've been trying the term balance instead of equality lately. Equality was used for race issues, which made somewhat more sense. In terms of gender we'll never be biologically or physiologically equal, nor equal in ability or perspective. Balance is something that could exist, at least on paper, but people have a lot of delusions to dispel and reality to swallow to even consider that notion. Still, if we're to strive for something, then balance seems to be the more fitting goal. Some may say to-may-to/to-mah-to, but I think linguistic choices do make a difference and that the the meanings between equality and balance, while subtle, are there and are important distinctions. I'm not "correcting" you, I'm just sharing my observation to see what your thoughts are.
Honestly, it depends. Nothing is all black or white. We live in gray. For both men and women there is chemistry. Just because you think you are a catch (male or female) does not make it so. Seems both the guys and girls complaining all had other options who they thought weren't good enough. Selective memory is what makes you think that no one was available. No one you wanted was available and the ones that wanted you, you didn't want. Both men and women experience the same thing but think their own experience is unique. High value guys and girls aren't MGTOW or WGTOW or even on the Internet blogging. They are out living their lives in the real world. That simple. Sometimes taking the red pill vs the blue pill is realizing you are not "high value" thus the painful experiences. The girls and guys that broke your heart's just weren't that into you.
Anna, you have a great attitude and I'm a 37 year old version of you. I'd never heard of WGTOW until now, but I think I would fit the bill.
I've only ever wanted to be an auntie, not a mother. I love kids, but as the eldest child in a huge family, I was made to do a LOT of mothering from a young age and the novelty wore off entirely. I've had a few relationships lasting several years, but felt claustraphobic and craved my own space most of the time. I am paid to dress up and 'perform' at work. I don't want to do that when I'm at home. I also didn't put men on a pedestal and feel like I NEEDED one, since I have a very male brain and can do (and enjoy) the DIY, accounting, mechanics, etc that women tend to avoid learning. I also have a good career, have been financially independent from a young age (my parents stopped parenting early on) and have done quite well through investing, so I share the MGTOW concern of having to hand over half of my wealth if I was ever married and divorced! (I'm my own gold-digger)
Like you, I have mostly male friends (besides a few 'tomboy' or 'nerdy' women) and tend to find it far easier to talk to guys. Although I'm less fussed about sex these days (yes, I became 'bored with sex' as you put it - I tried literally everything on my list and couldn't really top that) so wouldn't be upset if I had to give it up entirely after 'hitting the wall' in old age. However, I recently bought my own house, so I already have the material 'stuff' that women marry for. I don't need to exchange sex for money/stuff, so I don't need to have sex full stop. I guess my intense love of privacy, control and personal space extends to the bedroom too!
I do my best to treat everyone with respect, regardless of gender, and don't view people as potential commodities. I hang out with people that are decent and/or interesting to talk to. I am surrounded by people already (huge family, friends, neighbours, colleagues, various groups I belong to) and struggle to be alone even when I want to, so loneliness isn't an issue! I also worked in old people's homes when very young and 100% of the residents were single due to either divorce or, mostly, their partner had died years ago. So marriage and children is never a guarantee of you avoiding singledom. The only person I am guaranteed to have until the very end is my own self (and maybe a cool AI bot if they invent an advanced one).
Like you, I was told throughout my 20s that this was a 'phase', I would suddenly crave babies when I hit my 30s, that I would never be happy with this lifestyle. Most of my friends were married off and started babying by their late 20s/early 30s. They all seemed to feel sorry for me. A few years later and I now feel sorry for them. Even the good marriages are full of problems and the couples are stressed, exhausted, broke, insular and will likely be this way for a good 30% of their remaining lives. Two are already divorcing. They seem to be entirely reliant on each other for their happiness, identity and security, which to me looks like a messed up sort of codependency. So the older I get, the happier and more relaxed I feel that I have made the correct choice (for me, at least). Perhaps I just have such a huge ego that no other human on the planet can impress me that much? : D
I'll add that I was also present at two births and DAAAAAAMN!!! No way in hell am I doing that to myself! NO WAY!!
Another point (there are many) is the effect that marriage seems to have on a woman's appearance and health. Most of the women I know spent all of their money and time on trying to 'beautify' themselves in their 20s. They painted, tanned, dyed, waxed, starved, sweated, injected things, and splashed out on the nicest clothes they could afford in order to bag a husband by 30 (with the intention of then living off his money). Within 2-3 of marriage they either partly or completely let themselves go (usually the latter)! They were never making an effort to stay healthy for themselves, just to land a husband. So now they have accomplished this task, all of the extreme effort they went to is no longer neccessary in their mind. Why spend 2 hours a day exhausting yourself in a gym, living on salad and water, popping slimming pills, etc when you've already crossed the finish line? They revolt pretty hard, as if they are trying to make up for all of that lost time, and swing from one extreme to the next. My weight has stayed pretty much the same since ending puberty. I walk everywhere, but don't bother with gyms. I eat pretty healthily rather than starving or binging on cake. I don't bother with fake tan, manicures, tattoo makeup, high fashion, etc as I don't like it. I'm now in much better shape than 99% of them (as I've just stayed the same). I stay healthy and slim because I expect to be on my own in my 70s and want to remain in good shape as long as possible. I treat my body like a useful machine that I want to keep running.
I'm not sure if you are religious, but another factor for me is feeling that I was simply put on this planet to do something other than popping out babies. I believe everyone is here with a different mix of skills and needs to find their specific role for the few decades they exist here (those few decades go by incredibly fast). I have already done far more good as an aunt/godmother/mentor than I would have as a mother and continue to do so. I have several kids charities that I work with closely and I have been involved in various projects that I know have made a big difference. I've also travelled extensively and experienced some amazing things that most humans never get to see. If I was hit by a bus tomorrow, I would feel content in knowing I've had the best and most useful life possible. Any additional years are simply a bonus for me now! That's an incredible feeling to have. My life has been better than that of any 'princess'!
I hear a lot of man hating from the feminism movement, so I've never really identified with them. I certainly do not hate men. If WGTOW is simply a movement that encourages women to work hard, support themselves, and live a good life outside of relying on men for everything... then yeah, I'm all for that!
Just found this blog after doing an idly curious Google search on "WGTOW", to see if it existed or not (as a mildly autistic lover of symmetry, I hoped it would). While I don't know if I agree with you completely (sweeping generalizations make me nervous) I do admire the verve of your writing style, and your frank recognition of the sheer misery of being male, heterosexual and without properly evolved sublimatory mechanisms. I myself can still remember how horrible it all was, and often wish I could somehow make it easier for the new generations by pointing out the alternatives. I'll definitely be dropping in here again.
I personally disagree. This article is generalizing the experience of every wgtow woman. This honesty sounds like a red pill or mgtow man wrote this.
Thank you Ellie and Anna, for putting into exact words how I feel too. I too have always taken care of myself, my own business, house, money, I like being independent. I too traveled all over the world and experienced both relationships and explored my sexuality widely. It was a great journey and it made me realize I simply don't want to be in a relationship. I value my privacy and freedom. I ended up having children though and am still in a married relationship with their father. Somehow I fooled myself to think that I could get used to and even like being in a married relationship. I'd rather live our lives separately though, as partners and friends and parents, as I'm simply not made to intertwine my everyday life with someone else. I have no problem being there for my children, I work from home and homeschool them and take them with me everywhere to experience life, not just to drop them off at school. But as for my relationship with their father, I'd rather be separated. Right now I am moving towards that goal, by working hard so that I can get my own house. It's not easy since my husband has not been providing for our family, so I'll be paying most of the bills for our current situation plus saving up to create a similar household. I fantasize about my own place and it makes me totally happy. I want to show my children that any way you want to live your life is fine, as long as you follow yourself. To simply give these so called movements a name is silly, to label men and women and judge them as though you know them is nonsense. We are all individuals and we deal with what life gives us, in our own way. Together or separate, with benefits or unconditional, symbiotic or as individuals, it's all fine to me, if it's fine with you.
you don't want to acknowledge that some women might have rightful gripes about men & society from the other side of the fence, and be going their own way as well.. why?
Because you really want this to be a punishment to women and the world, don't you?
that's why y'all don't just actually wander off peacefully... you gotta come online and shout about it.. make everyone know what you're doing.. try to recruit other weak vulnerable men and try to make it into a giant male tantrum/exodus.
it's silly. what you're doing doesn't matter and has no effect on society or women. anyone with any sort of level-headedness is not going to be effected by your actions or complaints. because it doesn't matter.
i'm a woman who has been "going my own way" as well - i didn't even know about MGTOW until 2 days ago, but turns out i have come to similar conclusions in my own mind about how modern men are too stupid and difficult and just not worth the headache and hassle, atleast right now, and how i gotta get some things straightened out for myself before i'd ever want to try marriage again - if ever (i realized i was with a sick psychopath and was divorced and abandoned with child a number of years ago and yes it was just as traumatic as all the shit you went through with your narcissistic ladies, if not more so), and how the most sane thing to do in regard to society is get some land and a small house and live as self sufficiently as possible.. there's gotta be other single/divorced women coming to the same conclusions, but the thing is it's genuine for me. i didn't get it from a philosophy some other woman wrote about online in her whiny griping about men.. i'm not following someone else's rules about it.. i'm not boxing my life into an ideology.. and i'm not trying to punish anyone.. and i don't have an online network of WGTOWs having a whiny self-righteous male-bashing fest..
That 98% of women you complain about are mirrored by an equally (if not more so) selfish and insufferable 98% of men, believe it or not.
"feminism" isn't really about women, nor was it even started by them - they were just the ones initially used for instilling into society a socialist ideology written by evil male minds who have an agenda to enslave all of humanity into a globalist communist state. it's about turning eveyrone into "persons" instead of men or women, ruining marriage and family which is the stronghold of human society - we're all victims of this socialist shit (to an extent - we have to take responsibility for our own gullibility in falling for it). but that's one thing i'm not seeing many of you MGTOWs actually do - take responsibility for your own shortcomings - it's almost completely about being on a pity-potty about how wronged you were. get over yourselves! go ahead and go live alone in the woods with your little boy toys if that's what you want - women, society, and everything else will carry on without you i promise..
Right now I am in a monogamous relationship with a man with a child between us. But I am desperately trying to become a woman going her own way. Desperately. Desperately. Desperately. Oh Lord please get me out of this terrible toxic fucking relationship and just give me my own tiny little house with a few fucking cats, a giant cup of coffee and a quiet kitchen after the kid goes to school. I will sew up my vagina tight if I can just have my Golden Years start at 37.
Feminism is much worse than cancer since many of us smart men are going MGTOW today. As for many women today going WGTOW, let them just keep going as far away as possible.
I am seeing lots of hedonistic whiners on these M/WGTOW sites. I am a successful woman. I have experienced the the same problems of being used as men do. I have had more than one relationship evolve into dealing with their tantrums and meltdowns if they are unhappy with their job, health, status, or anything else in life. But I was not only expected to work hard and make enough money to pay the bills, but to also keep up the house and be available for sex all the time. Was I cold hearted when I bailed out of that?
I quit dating and started living- travel, learning, crafting, dancing, and enjoying my life. I didn't even know it was a thing. I found it looking for free therapy of the web. I guess you get what you pay for. The thing is I do like men and wish I could have an old fashioned boyfriend relationship, just to enjoy life and have some romance together without all of the games and entanglements.
I am disappointed that these movements are such a cryfest. Men and women tearing apart tears apart our whole civilization. I am not seeing constructive suggestions about how to put honesty and personal responsibility back into our culture. Instead, I am finding many comments about how acceptible it is to deceive people and be a player. I am not using my past disappontments as an excuse to treat the next man badly. I am also not ready to give up what I enjoy and have worked hard for just to get some male attention. I am trying to be open to a man who may be interested, but keep getting player signals.
"I was not only expected to work hard and make enough money to pay the bills, but to also keep up the house and be available for sex all the time."
My experience of relationships has been much the same. Way too much work for very little return. I have nothing against men, I like most of the guys I meet and think they are decent people (bar the odd psycho that gives everyone a bad name). And I think if a woman is a 7-10 looks wise, then perhaps a relationship is worth the risk. I'm a 6 at best and my dating pool just isn't worth the hassle to me (to be brutally honest). Since I have my own money, the only real benefit of marriage would be sex, and the men in my dating pool I wouldn't enjoy sex with. It's as simple as that. Unlike most men (and maybe a few women), I don't have such a strong craving for sex that I'm willing to sleep with anyone to fulfill that need. Porn is enough for me. At worst, I can pay to have 100% selfish amazing sex from a pro (yeah, I've considered that), without having to deal with any of the downsides of dating. When men talk about prostitutes, I can see the appeal.
I've never wanted my own kids (I come from a huge family, so already have tons of children around if I get the odd broody moment in the future). So I have no biological clock ticking. I would have liked to fall in love with someone who loved me and wanted an equal partner to work, travel, and build an empire with. But that never happened and is very unlikely to. I also love my own space most of the time and never enjoyed having to clean up or pay for boyfriends in the past.
Maybe I am getting more selfish as I get older, but WGTOW makes sense for someone like me. I don't agree with all the negative stuff many of these sites complain about. I generally enjoy the company of men over women on a platonic basis. I occasionally meet the odd man I can be friends with (if his owner lets him talk to women). But the idea of marriage appeals less and less over time.
I would like to see a positive version of WGTOW (no bitching about guys, just focusing on living independently).
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