Sunday, September 23, 2012

Who Wants to Hire Katie Underhay!

Not kidding.  This is a recent comment on that post I made about that idiot who pursued a "Masters" in "Puppetry."  She seemed hell-bent on getting her e-mail out there, so let's give her a warm Cappy Cap welcome.

Katie Underhay - email me at for more information, if you are willing to be educated said...
I seriously think you need to worry about yourself before you worry about the careers and education of everyone else on Earth. Puppetry, like any other career (particularly the arts and theatre) is incredibly hard to get into. Having a masters degree in a subject is no doubt going to help employability and why shouldn't someone who is passionate about a subject which could bring joy to millions have to pass that up to become a neurobiologist? I am not "too stupid" to have a different career, but I like puppets. And if Jim Henson decided to become an accountant then I expect there would be thousands of children all over the world who would have found it a lot harder to earn to count, or about coping with death or accepting other cultures and ethnicities (all covered within Sesame Street).

I highly doubt you have seen War Horse, but Handspring (a British puppet company) developed beautiful and moving puppetry based on Michael Morpurgo's novel at the National Theatre Company and not only has this production moved from the national to another West End Theatre, it has also moved to Broadway and entertained and been a form of escapism for thousands of people. And if you think that something this spectacular on the West End and Broadway isn't worth educated people to be involved in it, PLEASE be my guest and insult Musical Theatre Degrees, Drama Degrees, Fine Art Degrees, Music Degrees, Stage Management, Theatre Design, Technical Theatre, because in your mind, these are all pointless, as is the theatre. I suppose if you think theatre is pointless, you agree that television is pointless? And that degrees in acting are pointless for the performers in your favourite TV shows?

I do not take insults to the arts lightly. They are often made by ignorant people who expect entertainment to come from nowhere. So unless you want to sit alone in a room being a banker (or whatever you do) with no artwork or posters on your wall, no music to ever listen to or even radio shows, no television, no theatre, no film, no literature, and no bedtime stories to read your children (which I doubt) then LIVE AND LET LIVE.

If you don't like the idea of a Masters Degree in Puppetry, don't take one! And stop worrying about those who do! Live is too short to worry abut people you think are idiots, therefore I shall stop thinking about you!

Seriously people, I'm not making this up.  This IS a real comment.

Now, I have plenty of things to say, but instead, I'm going to take a different approach.

I'm going to let you guys eviscerate her.

Now keep in mind she is only a naive 20 something child who has no real world experience and relies on us real adults to work real jobs to pay the taxes so she can pursue a subsidized hobby whilst claiming (no doubt) to be an "independent woman" even though she is the veritable definition of a parasite. 

So be extra special "affirmative action" sweet to her.

On a serious note.  Cripes.  Are people in this world really this stupid?


Anonymous said...

Is she seriously trying to pull some sort of hipster "you probably haven't even heard of it"-think with that talk about the moving and beautiful puppet show "War horse"? Jesus christ.

Captain Capitalism said...

It gets worse.

I already deleted/denied 3-4 comments on this post that were from "anonymous" magically "rallying to her defense" making absurd arguments about how I'm ignorant, don't understand, blah blah blah blah.

You just KNOW it's some 20 something idiot vainly trying to rationalize her galactically stupid mistake to major in something as such. AND additioanlly pathetic making multiple posts as she feigns to be multiple people.

Since she's reading this because its the first real criticism she's received in her entire life.


She won't listen, but eh, I tried. Good thing she will be paying my social security.

Captain Capitalism said...

Upgrade it to 6 "anonymous" posts I've deleted.

Anonymous said...

"Puppetry, like any other career (particularly the arts and theatre) is incredibly hard to get into."

Why is it hard to get into? Is there a guild of puppeters (sp?) that guards the door of the collective? Is there an abundance of puppeters filling up every conceivable job?

If there really is a group of people that are denying entry to this vaunted career...then you need to create another association to help hire the unemployed puppeters.

If there are too many puppeters and you can't get a gig....then you need to find another skill set and get another line of work.

Seems rational to me....too many people in the field of work = low wages and no jobs. No jobs = learn a new skill set and get a job....and stop demanding that you get your way; it doesn't look professional.


Anonymous said...

"I do not take insults to the arts lightly. They are often made by ignorant people who expect entertainment to come from nowhere."

Why are you of the mindset that arts and entertainment is necessary?

I think food, housing and clothes are the necessary things of life. Entertainment; not so much. Actually, you are talking about PAID entertainment is a necessary thing of life....BAH!!!!!

I get more enjoyment from watching my g-kids rattle about the house then I ever got from paying for my entertainment!


Captain Capitalism said...

Dear "Anonymous"

When you start posting under a real name, we'll start publishing your comments.

Otherwise, you can totally understand why we're not going to just publish random people's willy nilly (I believe that's what you Brits call BS) opinions.

You have to have like a name or a figure or something behind it to make it real or legitimate. Otherwise we here at Cappy Cap (meaning, me, Aaron Clarey, loser guy supreme who magically manages to get more street cred that most in these here interwebz) are merely going to dismiss you as the 20 something paid for suburbanite brats that you are. it is that you 19 year old brits say to one another to make yourselves feel important without doing anything legitimately productive or real.



keep infusing that insistence of legitimacy on you youth nowadays, eh

My apologies.

Jesus, do you deserve to be ran over by the third worlders.

we won't save you this time.

Eric said...

It's not that people don't value entertainment, we pay lots of money per year for it. It's that there are far more people studying how to entertain others than there is a market for entertainers. That's why the arts are so hard to get into. It's complicated by there are some forms of entertainment that people can achieve success in without a degree at all (most of them really).

It's also why people push the STEM fields. There's a market for STEM majors that's much bigger than the number of people studying it.

Captain Capitalism said...

Another deleted comment was about how "we are the future, you need us."


You and your puppetry mastering skills?

That's going to pay for my social security???

They don't understand it because they're dumber than sh$t, but my readers do understand just how stupidly irony that is.


My god how galactically stupid they are.

Captain Capitalism said...

Now Eric! That isn't nice!

Don't you know you're hurting Katie's feelings!

Let's all shut down the entire GDP of the US and the UK to make little brats like her fell better about herself.

Jenny Lucas said...

I used to go to college with Katie in a shitty town where everyone was either claiming benefits or having children so they could claim more benefits. It's refreshing that Katie actually has passion and drive to do the things she loves the most, rather than have a baby at 15 and call it a career. I'm confused as to why you can't just be content that she is doing that course because it is something she genuinely loves. Just a thought...

Unknown said...

Dear Katie,
Who is going to feed, house and clothe you (and your kids) for a decade or so, while you "work" to become a successful puppeteer?

If you are willing to live in abject poverty so you can pursue your art full time, kudos to you. I strongly recommend that you learn to support yourself, or find a willing patron. As a taxpayer, I'm an UNWILLING patron.

Leap of a Beta said...

Lord, it's people like her that make me wish I wasn't in a field tied into stupid, vapid, selfish bitches.

Look sweetheart,
No one on this world owes you anything after you get out of college. Not your neighbor, not a stranger, not the government, no one. not even your parents; they've done their job and you should move on.

As a theatre designer I take a huge insult from your "I should be hired, DAMNIT!" mentality. I'm out here in Chicago, busting my balls to make rent and making sacrifices because, to me, its a life worth it. A lot of my income is low enough not to be taxed, or under the counter. I have a $375 a month rent and pay most of my money to look professional, pay rent, pay my bills, eat, and drink. I don't have a car, I don't have much. But I have a shit ton of pride, a ton of skill, and don't whine and bitch about how I should be hired.

The result? As a designer in one of the largest cities for theatre, I'm booked till February right now.

If you can't get work, you made poor choices. You either sacrificed to stupid, unrealistic goals or you didn't sacrifice enough to make them happen. Take a good, honest look at which of those this is, and act accordingly

Leap of a Beta said...

On that note, I'm going to go do a 12 hour call making 15 dollars an hour of what will likely be untaxed income hanging and focusing lights for a children's show.

So, Katie, what skills do you have that someone would pay you to do them?

UK Fred said...

I hope that Cappy won't mind another Brit commenting. I'm Scottish, and where I come from we have a phrase for people who do things like take a Masters in Puppetry. We call them Educated Eejits (for those of you on the West side of the Pond that is 'Educated Idiots').

If someone wants to take their education in some form of the arts to such a level, I have no objection, so long as I am not paying for such frivolity.

Katie should be thankful that I am not Chancellor of the Exchequer (The British Finance Minister) or she really would be howling, because not only would I stop all public funding for such courses, I stop funding the Arts Council completely too. And before anyone else chooses to whinge about that, let me remind you that the subsidised events put on with Arts Council funding tend to encourage the rich to attend more events, and do not spread culture around more of society. So the funding is taking from the less well off to give to the comfortable. That's bad politics at the best of times. If anyone does choose to spread their opinions via the media, I would have made the BBC a subscription only service and that would leave the Guardian newspaper, which is fine, because the tax avoiders who run the Guardian are wrapped up in a private Trust, and just whinge about other people avoiding tax. There is no reason, beyond bloated bureaucracy and the inability of politicans to grasp the nettle, why the highest rate of tax in Britain needs to be above 10%.

Anonymous said...

What strikes me most is that she can't tell the difference between disparaging the arts in general, and mocking her appalling life decisions in particular.

I like the arts. I enjoy things like opera. And I think that this woman is a moronic little douche. If she had actually *worked* in puppetry to gain skills, she'd have my respect. But noooooo, that would be, like vocational training, and she has nothing but contempt for that.

She is so enamoured with the idea of having Higher Edumacation, that she has spent huge money (taxpayer guaranteed, naturally) acquiring a degree in something that she could've learned on the job. But then, how would she face her barista Ph.D friends?

And we all just know that, considering the high unemployment and low wages in theatre, she's gonna be on our case in the future about how haaaaaard it is. About how she has all these loans to pay off, and the rent is too darn high, and whywhyohwhy can't she get a jaaaawwwwwbbbbb...It MUST be Wall Street's fault. Ain't no other explanation - if SHE can't succeed to the stratospheric heights she just KNOWS she's capable of, then it MUST mean that there's no such thing as meritocracy.

Lis.x said...

Just one thing; please can you just take her email address off your post. This entire thing is a little immature in both cases and some of these comments are nasty and uncalled for.
I do agree with you saying you can learn puppeteering by yourself but this applies to learning instruments or singing lessons.. Anything that can be taught really as well. I didn't read all the responses but generalising and saying things like everyone in the arts are "dumb as sh#t" isn't necessary..

Unknown said...

With stupidity like this, I'm surprised there are no hip hop and rap colleges around yet. I'm sure everyone would love to have a master's degree in learning how to be a self-loving moron.

There's even a college in my state that offers the only "rural studies" program in the entire country! No wonder more and more jobs are being outsourced to China and how America has been ranked 18th in terms of economic freedom. It's a shame. The government needs to cut funding completely to any college that offers puppetry in the form of a bachelor's or master's degree. (Rural Studies program information)

Tom the Impaler said...

She might get a job in a production of "Avenue Q"

Anonymous said...

My best friend's sister is one of these. At age 30 and after 10 short years, she has finally attained her masters in music composition. The ironic thing is that she does not compose music or perform in a band and although she has a beautiful voice her only gigs are guest appearances in church choirs...which is a whole other story since she is a party girl slut single mother.

The funny part is now that she has her diploma in hand, she is complaining that she cannot find work as a grammar school music teacher and how difficult it is to break into the education system. She is facing moving home with her parents, who have already taken to raising her 8 year old son for the last 2 years to help her focus on her studies, because there is no work at all in...wait for it...New York City.

But thank god for women like her who brave 10 years of education and the hardhips of a poor starving college student so they can teach our next generation Ta Ta Ti Ti Ta.

Anonymous said...

This one hits me right in the nuts.

Couple years back, my daughter dropped the sciences and took up studies in Fine Arts. When I objected to the way she was spending her education funds that I saved for her, I was shouted down by the rest of the family and told to 'STFU'. My a-hole of a father in law decreed that 'all education is GOOD education'.

Today my daughter is a proud, gay artiste and has a paper to say so. She also has ten years of student loan payments and flies a cash register at a sporting goods store. She lives in a dump, she doesn't drive and lives pay check to pay check.

I dearly want to help her. Part of me seriously wants to go down to the bank, pull some savings and set her to rights again.

But I won't - and I have forbidden the wife from doing so too. This is not a cut against art, or artists or anything like that - it's about maturity. At some point you have to forget about dreams and think about feeding yourself and paying bills, and how you're going to do that.

Art is for the inspired and the talented. It is not for the hobbyists and poseurs like my daughter - who was told from day one by well-meaning people that she was special, that she was talented, and that she could make a living doing anything she wanted.

But what do I know? I am just a father that wanted the best for my kid - and goodness knows those beta males and liberal cretins in my family knew better than I did.

Katie - assuming your father is a man and not a liberal beta male - ask his advice. He will not lie to you anymore than I did with my daughter. If he tells you what you don't want to hear, it's probably because he loves you.

There is no sin in making a mistake. The sin comes when you refuse to call it one and insist that others pay for it.

Anonymous said...

Master degree in puppets. We'll we got to look at the bright side here, she is young and used to fine manipulations with her hands. She totally has an old fashioned career choice. Though she better not mention it, telling the customers "I got a degree in this" will cause to many laughs and ruin the moment.

Dave said...

In Belgium, anyone can call himself an artist and sell his work to the government. Most of these artists would otherwise be unemployed because, well, see for yourself:

In the old days, government boondoggles had clearly defined goals, e.g. "Electrify all of Tennessee", "put a man on the Moon and return him safely to Earth"

How do you even define "art"?

Apollo said...

Instead od eviscerating Kaite I'm going to try and help her.

The first thing you need to understand about professional education Kaite, is that you need to look at it like an investment. You're saying you want a career in puppetry, and careers are primarily about making money to live off. Yes, you can and should try and find a career you are passionate about and enjoy, but you ignore the financial aspect of this at your own peril. You need food and shelter, and if puppetry is your chosen career then puppetry has to pay for that food and shelter. And given that, any training you undertake to help you support yourself using puppetry should be cost effective.

That means weigh up the costs and benefits of each training option you have before deciding which to choose.

If you're consider getting a Masters Degree in Puppetry you need to consider the following:
* how long will it take you to recoup the financial costs of your investment (take what you expect to earn, subtract your costs of living, calculate how many years it will take you to pay the tuition back )
* what are the opportunity costs of doing the degree? In other words, what things won't you be able to do to get your puppetry career going because you will be in class?
* will the credential help you get a job in the puppeting industry? Do people currently in the industry have the credential? Do job adverts for puppeteers ask for it? What's the opinion of people in the industry on this? Do any people current working as puppeteers have this degree?
* will the skills you learn be relevant and sufficient for the job? Will there still be learning to do once you're done before you can do the job? Are there additional skills being taught that you don't need to know?

Don't take this lightly, it's very important you get this stuff right. Don't make assumptions about any of the questions above either.

I have a Masters degree myself, and I'll tell you that what I learned during the degree has only marginal usefulness in my job (which is in a field directly related to the subject of the degree) and the majority of the skills I use were learned on the job or through personal (e.g. Non University related) study.

I'm not even sure the credential has helped my career that much either, because I got it after I had already started working. Luckily for me though, my Degree was paid for by my employer, and I got it by studying part time, while still working full time.

If I had chosen to get the degree before starting work I'd likely be three years behind where I am now career wise and still paying off the debt as opposed to having loads of savings. And that's with me working in a STEM field, which has much better employment prospects than your chosen field.

Grit said...

"Puppetry, like any other career (particularly the arts and theatre) is incredibly hard to get into. Having a masters degree in a subject is no doubt going to help employability and why shouldn't someone who is passionate about a subject which could bring joy to millions have to pass that up to become a neurobiologist?"

I see a delusion with EVERY claim made in this statement.

First, i see her spinning "hard to get noticed or famous" into "hard to get into." The second statement about employability confirms it. Take someone like Jim Henson: he made it big as a pupeteer (the only one i know) because he invented an honest to god entertaining and relatable character cast of puppets. I think this girl conviently ignores the entire "value creation" stage in favor of a credential.

"...why shouldn't someone who is passionate about a subject which could bring joy to millions have to pass that up to become a neurobiologist?"

This is a non-sequitur logical fallacy. A college masters degree is not the ONLY way to make it it life. Spoken like a true feminist: you don't want to suffer the time and effort it takes to create value because you are entitled. You are entitled that a college degree is a social status marker and should immediately land you into a Henson- level crew.

In the real world, your value can supercede a credential if it is a truly valued creation. You don't need a degree at all.

Finally, the neurobiologist statement: please. Quit reading off the college "majors offered" list. Be more creative than that.

PS There is a Real Social Dynamics video about women and their "careers." He claims that women don't experience failure to learn from it. They are incapable of experimenting to create value. Instead, they point their arrow as high up the food chain as they can, let it fly, and ride their beauty and "professionalism" until it lands them in a position one magnitude lower than out-of-their-league. The original poster seems to confirm this.

Tim said...

Every time I think, "no one could be that stupid." Someone suprises me.

Eric B said...

Heck, most degrees, even engineering to some extent, are simply credentialism. (Ask any engineer and they will tell you 90% of what they know they learned on the job.). Basically, you are simply paying a bunch of money for a certificate to get a job. At least with engineering, you have a chance of paying for it.

A masters in puppetry? You need a masters for that? I can't believe you even need a bachelors degree for that.

Bob said...

Where to start with this nonsense? First off, people have been engaged in acting, music, puppetry, art, et al. for THOUSANDS OF YEARS before the invention of worthless degrees in these programs. Likewise, most of the people who are the most successful in these fields - both past and present, did not/do not have degrees in said subjects. Picasso didn't have an art degree, Sinatra didn't have a music degree - even your own example Jim Henson didn't have a puppetry degree. Or in other words, you don't need to get a worthless degree to learn this stuff!

As for the marketability of said degrees, most holders of "arts" degrees are working at Starbucks - if they're lucky enough to have a job at all. In effect, you're paying TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS (or in your case pounds) to get a worthless degree, that teaches you "skills" you could learn on your own for free, that virtually guarantees you will be unemployed - or if you're lucky, "underemployed."

CBMTTek said...

Cappy, I have said this before, and I still stand by my statement. There is probably nothing in the world that is not a legitimate field of study. Hyphenated-American, Philosophy, Anthropology, Art History, and, yes, even Puppetry.

The problem is not studying the art of puppetry, or even trying to have a career in puppetry. The problem lies in the belief of people who pursue educations in the liberal arts that somehow, that certificate/diploma will translate into a lucrative career. And, when it doesn't result in a well paying job, they REFUSE to acknowledge, just like Katie, that it is their choices that led them to a fascinating career at Starbucks.

Katie is correct though, puppetry, acting, art historian, can all be lucrative and enjoyable careers that enhance the human experience for the entire world. But, gaining success in those fields is a one in a million shot. For every Jim Henson, there are thousands of puppeteers that are NEVER going to get a gig anywhere outside of the children's section of their local library.

What Katie, and those like her, do not understand is that in the arts, education, hard work, and stubbornness is pretty much meaningless. Success is 75% or more complete luck. Success is right place, right time, right presentation at that very moment. Nothing more.

Yet, she still tries to legitimize her choice in education, and her choice of a hobby as a career choice, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Captain Capitalism said...

Wow, Jenny. What high standards:

"She's not a parasitic single mom thug loser collecting a government check like everybody else in the neighborhood."

No, she's a pampered brat collecting a government subsidy to literally play elementary school girl with puppets.

Thank god I'm an American and not paying the taxes for this child.


Herr Wilson said...

"If you don't like the idea of a Masters Degree in Puppetry, don't take one! And stop worrying about those who do! "

Kate obviously feels that getting a Masters Degree in Puppetry has no impact upon the rest of society. How solipsistic of her. A large portion of that degree is funded by taxpayers and the loans taken out by Kate Doe, MP (Maters in Puppeteering) are guaranteed with tax payers' money.

Cappy Cap isn't just concerned about you Kate, he is also concerned about his wallet.

Eoin MacAodh said...

Here's a quick shot with my hands tied behind my back (i.e., I haven't had my coffee yet):

Katie, have you considered that choosing to spend oneself into a large amount of debt (of the sort that cannot be discharged) is a fundamentally unwise decision if the result does not pay for itself? That by "unwise," I mean it seriously hinders not only one's happiness, but one's freedom, for years to come? After all, economic desperation will do more to limit your options than almost anything else. Since it's wrong to force others to subsidize our own poor decisions beyond the most basic (that is, anything more than food and shelter for the needy is theft by proxy to fund our own luxuries - morally little different from piracy), it must also be wrong to lie to people who attempt to do this to themselves.

The market has zero demand for additional fine arts people - they have saturated the market. By encouraging people to pursue the fine arts, and to put themselves in debt to do so, you are doing real, measurable *harm* to real, living human beings. Because you won't say the tough things now, you are partially culpable in much greater and longer-lasting hurt feelings later. Worse, even though you can't stomach short-term loss for long-term gain (though you seem to perfectly accept the opposite), you are now condemning someone else who *is* doing something to help.

tl;dr version: Go practice your algebra.

Doktor Bill said...

I understand EXACTLY what this poor girl is going through. I have a MA in "Heir to the Throne" and it appears IMPOSSIBLE to break into the field! It's almost like you have to Know someone, or be related. Nepotism anyone?

V10 said...

In Katie's defense, it seems unlikely that she could just walk in off the street and ask to apprentice (even unpaid) with some theater troupe. Maybe if she had some practical trade skills in sewing or carpentry, or had made a hobby of ventriloquism, and could demonstrate some raw talent. But then again, maybe not; credentialism abounds everywhere, even amongst avant garde counter-culture hipsters.

Roberto: "With stupidity like this, I'm surprised there are no hip hop and rap colleges around yet. I'm sure everyone would love to have a master's degree in learning how to be a self-loving moron."

I don't know about post-secondary degrees in rap, but I have read about elementary and high school students in some, hmmm, 'culturally-diverse underprivileged urban districts' being offered extra-curricular programs on the subject (subsidized, of course).

God forbid actual skill-building programs be offered, either in schools or outside, to youth of any demographic. I get the impression that such programs have been systematically neutered over the past decade or two; both the guy-centered shop classes as well as girly* things like sewing and cooking. The former are too terrifyingly dangerous in the minds of modern liberals, and the later sets their patriarchy gender stigma alarms clanging. And on some level, all those courses are sneered at for being too low-class for THEIR children; only uncouth plebs work with their hands.

* But nevertheless useful to even the manliest of bachelors

PuaHate said...

If your free on tuesday Katie Underhay, my apartment needs to be cleaned and vacuumed.

Also, I hear you can do laundry like nobody's business, so you're free to do that for me too.

Lis.x said...

Please take her email address off.. I don't care if you respond to me, I just really don't want something this hateful reflected back on to the uni. Gives us a bad name, and for the record we do a lot of vocational training.
She was just standing up for something she's passionate about, it isn't the only thing in her life.

Leap of a Beta said...

To make some clarification on puppetry work in theatre:

In the US, if you were living in LA or NYC and went to one of the top film or theatre schools there, you could reasonably expect to get a very well paying job in theatre or film for puppetry work. If you did well in your classes, learned your skill set, developed a good portfolio, and networked with your professors and the people they know. And yes, you'd need to excel in all those areas.

You'd likely graduate and get an assistant position, internship, or entry level job.

If you didn't go to a graduate program, it would be all about who you know. Either lucky to have an inside recommendation or start from scratch. The benefit of starting from scratch is you learn other skills and don't go into debt. The benefit of a masters is you can also get a cushy professor position later in life if you desire.

But anyone that tells you they 'haven't got their break' as a theatre artist is bullshitting you. Theyre lazy, untalented, or both. I've never seen someone with even moderate talent not go far if they have a drive and aren't afraid to sacrifice.

WFLBG said...

And now for something completely different: a vaguely constructive post.

As long as Katie has not signed with Equity, she could jump-start her career by getting involved with amateur theatre and starting to network there.

Alternately, she could move into more of a directive role by showing up to the Puppet Theatre Barge or the Unicorn Theatre with a script and some mock-up models on their next cattle call.

NOTE: Don't mention the master's degree at any point before a formal interview.

NOTE 2: If the Bachelor's degree was an "(anything) studies" degree that didn't involve composition and live performance...say you're tired of office work and trying to break into the arts.

Captain Capitalism said...

No, Lis,

She put her e-mail up on a post, and now it gets posted.

Welcome to the real world and welcome to being treated as an adult.

And I don't give two craps about how it reflects your (obviously) craptastic university.

Though, in intellectual honesty I WILL publish a list of successful "puppeteers" or "artist" from your university.

Do keep in mind though, if you provide me with a list that only people in that university have heard of, you will further bring mockery to your school from the real world who have never heard of these no-names before. Additionally, Jim Henson (who I think didn't have a degree) is the ONLY puppeteer I can name.

You guys frankly remind me of the culinary school where I taught economics. Bunch of moronic kids who hated hard work and math and wanted to major in fluffy crap. NONE ever amounted to anything beyond a chef at Applebee's.

The education bubble ends. And it starts here. Get ready for your precious little world to be crushed by reality.

When you're 40 you'll thank me for it.

Pulp Herb said...

Katie, I am a banker. By most of my adult jobs I'm a computer programmer. My degree is in mathematics and somehow I got into banking.

A degree in a specific field is not a requirement to get into that field.

In fact, the banker in the cube next to me has no college degree (in a group where the majority of people have Master's Degrees or better in a STEM field). He was a printer who saw his field was dying and taught himself computer programming.

So, I'm confused on how getting a degree, whose majority cost you aren't covering (you're at a public institution if I understand correctly, meaning the gov't covers the majority of the cost meaning bankers who go STEM degrees) is so important to getting into the field.

That, however, is not my main point as my selected quote should make clear (given your banker point, however, I did want to point out I am one):

They are often made by ignorant people who expect entertainment to come from nowhere. So unless you want to sit alone in a room being a banker (or whatever you do) with no artwork or posters on your wall, no music to ever listen to or even radio shows, no television, no theatre, no film, no literature, and no bedtime stories to read your children (which I doubt) then LIVE AND LET LIVE.

This is going to surprise you, but even though I'm a banker who is by trade a computer programmer and by education a mathematician I don't need you to entertain me.

You see, I own three items know as a clarinet, a flute, and a bass guitar. I make my own music. I do pay some people to play with me in the form of lessons, but neither of them have Master's yet are somehow both working musicians. My clarinet instructor teaches school, some lessons, and plays lots of sessions with local jazz and latin bands. My flute instruction was a web designer by day until she build up enough work as a teacher and commissioned composer to quit the day job.

Notice what all of us are doing that you're not: working hard and figuring out what to do to make music. Notice what we're not doing? Whining about it on the web when we can't find work making music.

Also, your idea of entertainment seems kind of limited. Other things I'm doing to entertain myself are re-reading Godel, Escher, Bach. It's about how thought works and is the reason I studied mathematics. I find working through the ideas in it very entertaining without puppet interpretation by you. Oh, the two artists mentioned in the title were very successful and neither had Master's degrees either although both are considered masters in their fields.

I'm sorry you're confusing credentalism with ability and chasing pieces of paper with hard work. However, neither inspires me to want to hire you or be entertained by you (this context excepted).

Pulp Herb said...

Do keep in mind though, if you provide me with a list that only people in that university have heard of, you will further bring mockery to your school from the real world who have never heard of these no-names before. Additionally, Jim Henson (who I think didn't have a degree) is the ONLY puppeteer I can name.

He didn't. He dropped out of the University of Maryland when he got some traction doing local TV (this was about the time my mother started at the UoM and remembers people talking about him).

Craig M. said...

I just hope when the reality of her career choice and their ramifications set in, she gets my order right and doesn't smash the fries at the bottom of the bag.

LordSomber said...

I respect the arts and a whole side of my family is quite artistic. Painters, calligraphers, illustrators, photographers -- one even has permanent stuff in MoMA.
But looking back, the one thing we all have in common? We have DAY JOBS.
The artist with the MOST freedom is one who does NOT depend on it as a means to feed oneself and pay the bills.

Pulp Herb said...

But looking back, the one thing we all have in common? We have DAY JOBS.

Austin Kleon, in his book Steal Like an Artist lists ten things to become a successful artist.

Number nine is "be boring" which has advice about not getting into debt and keeping the day job. He argues the day job not only reduces the stress of trying to live on your art but keeps you in contact with people for inspiration.

Note, Kleon is a published author of multiple books so he's ahead of Katie.

When I recently saw him speak during the Q&A I asked how much push back he got on number nine, be boring, and specifically about the day job bit.

He said that oddly, in a tone that implied he didn't see it as odd at all, only people who were unsuccessful as artists pushed back on it. When people who had some degree of success (shows, published books, albums that sold, etc) mentioned it at all it was to agree.

So, Katie, if you don't want to listen to me, listen to an artist who has an audience and an income (ie, career) with his art:

1. Do go into debt.
2. Keep the day job.

Oh, and none of the ten is "get a Master's degree".

Chemist said...

Well Captain, your message is getting out and there is hope...

A few days ago I was watching the news and there was a piece about Vancouver and how expensive housing is there. They had some painters and musicians on complaining about how hard it was covering their expenses.

My 14 year old daughter walked in and watched with me for a couple minutes and then she yelled out at the TV 'That's because you don't have a job. Being a painter isn't a real job. It's a hobby. Get a real job and then you'll be able to pay your bills.'

Sean Conner said...

Now, now Captain, there are more puppeteers than just Jim Henson. He may be the most famous, but he doesn't work alone and had a large company of other puppeteers.

Off the top of my head, I can name Frank Oz (who worked with Henson), Sid and Marty Kroft (who are famous for their 70s Saturday morning shows), Sherry Lewis (Lambchop, from the 50s and 60s if I recall correctly) and even Trey Parker and Matt Stone (Team America---they're an interesting case because they had no training in animation at all).

I can't see what a degree in puppetry will get you. Right now, I'm following two Internet based video shows (on that are puppet based (who'd have thought that a foul mouthed, pot smoking bunny reviewing TV shows could be amusing) that have a following (if small) and they probably have just as much knowledge of puppetry as one who obtained a masters.

So Katie, get a digital camera (heck, cheap ones around $100 can do video), film your own puppet shows and put them on YouTube (or or any number of other video services) and build your own audience. Yeah, you'll probably have to work a job while you do it, but if you get any form of audience, you can get a cut of advertising revenue to help with the bills.

But a degree in puppetry? Fine if you can afford one out of hand, but I see it as largely being useless, and this from someone who paid too much for a Computer Science degree (I use almost nothing I learned in college at work, but I did get a few jobs from fellow students).